so complex!

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Re: so complex!

David Mintz


On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:57 AM, aoohralex <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am sure that Symfony Framework isn't easier. I also sure that in SF
everything has sense and I can easy find help. And I am sure that I still
don't understand this strange method which I must add to Bootstrap:

protected function _initAutoload()
   {
       $moduleLoader = new Zend_Application_Module_Autoloader(array(
                       'namespace' => '',
                       'basePath' => APPLICATION_PATH));
               return $moduleLoader;
   }


Actually he kind of has sort of a point here, in that this kind of thing does make your eyes glaze over, unless you have a deep understanding of ZF. It's like, if it's so auto, why do I need to do it?

--
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
Nbt
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RE: so complex!

Nbt
In reply to this post by David Mintz

Well I am so much surprised, why people are behaving like 3rd party, not at all concerned about this and work as team which is the motto of Open Source technology. I am very much upset with the tone of the people.

 

Yes, I do agree there are requirement of some real world tutorial and more detailed documentation considering starter of Zend Framework. And I completely agree that and it is clearly mentioned that people wanting to use Zend Framework is supposed to have working PHP knowledge, basic LAMP installation knowledge and concepts of OOPs clear.

 

However you can ask people here on request tone not ordering, it is an open source framework, you have not purchased it and asking/ordering. And as an concept of Open Source, everybody should rather do their part, whatever way they can be helpful.

 

I am sorry, if I have written little bit more, but I could not stop myself writing, reading these emailing since 2-3 days.

 

I would be emailing some guideline to include in documentation from my view point, as being 16+ years industry experience and worked on many different programming platforms.

 

Thanks & Regards,

 

Naimesh Trivedi

http://www.auminfotech.co.in

 

From: David Mintz [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 9:46 PM
To: aoohralex
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!

 

 

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:57 AM, aoohralex <[hidden email]> wrote:


I am sure that Symfony Framework isn't easier. I also sure that in SF
everything has sense and I can easy find help. And I am sure that I still
don't understand this strange method which I must add to Bootstrap:

protected function _initAutoload()
   {
       $moduleLoader = new Zend_Application_Module_Autoloader(array(
                       'namespace' => '',
                       'basePath' => APPLICATION_PATH));
               return $moduleLoader;
   }



Actually he kind of has sort of a point here, in that this is the kind of thing that does make your eyes glaze over, unless you have a deep understanding of ZF. It's like, if it's so auto, why do I need to do it?

--
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness

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Re: so complex!

Graham Anderson
In reply to this post by David Mintz
On Thursday 17 September 2009 18:16:28 David Mintz wrote:
>Actually he kind of has sort of a point here, in that this is the kind of
>thing that does make your eyes glaze over, unless you have a deep
>understanding of ZF. It's like, if it's so auto, why do I need to do it?

I'm not specifically addressing the following points to you personally
David...

This is where I disagree and where people tend to assume that ZF should tie
your shoelaces and wipe your bum. Other frameworks may or may not _fully_
configure this type of thing for you but at the expense of flexibility.

If developers expect that you can customise your modules; e.g.the location and
path to your modules, and the directory structure of your modules, the class
names of the module resources and so on... Then it's not unreasonable to
expect that this flexibility requires a little, and i stress *little*, bit of
effort.

Considering that by passing only the basepath as a config arguement to the
module autoloader class, and by adhering to the default project module
directory structure and class naming; developers can have out of the box
module autoloading of: Forms, Table Gateways, Models, View Filters, View
Helpers, plugin classes, service classes.

I think what I'm trying to say here is, if a developer is not prepared to
instantiate a class with a simple configuration array or object, or is not
prepared to take a trip to the freely available API documentation to
understand the class libraries he is using. In my opinion they have no right
or place to *ever* complain about the code they are using, and should probably
not be in this line of work in the first place.

--
“Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes.”
 ☘ Oscar Wilde
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Re: so complex!

David Mintz


On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Graham Anderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thursday 17 September 2009 18:16:28 David Mintz wrote:
>Actually he kind of has sort of a point here, in that this is the kind of
>thing that does make your eyes glaze over, unless you have a deep
>understanding of ZF. It's like, if it's so auto, why do I need to do it?

I'm not specifically addressing the following points to you personally
David...

This is where I disagree and where people tend to assume that ZF should tie
your shoelaces and wipe your bum. Other frameworks may or may not _fully_
configure this type of thing for you but at the expense of flexibility.

If developers expect that you can customise your modules; e.g.the location and
path to your modules, and the directory structure of your modules, the class
names of the module resources and so on... Then it's not unreasonable to
expect that this flexibility requires a little, and i stress *little*, bit of
effort.
<snip/>


I don't disagree, which is why I qualified my remark by saying he "sort of" had a point "kind of." (Actually, your explanation clarifies matters for me considerably:  this little snippet, copied and pasted into your bootstrap, gives you all that autoloading magic out of the box and that's if you so choose, otherwise do something else.) I was trying to say simply that to the uninitiated, it looks particularly arcane.

--
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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Re: so complex!

Carlton Gibson-4

On 17 Sep 2009, at 19:00, David Mintz wrote:

>  I was trying to say simply that to the uninitiated, it looks  
> particularly arcane.


Is there room, perhaps in ZendX, for an opinionated extension to ZF  
which put new users on the right _track_, so to speak?

(I'm sure I've not got the goods for this but maybe some people have.)

Regards,
Carlton
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Re: so complex!

David Mintz


On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Carlton Gibson <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 17 Sep 2009, at 19:00, David Mintz wrote:

 I was trying to say simply that to the uninitiated, it looks particularly arcane.


Is there room, perhaps in ZendX, for an opinionated extension to ZF which put new users on the right _track_, so to speak?

Heh. Implement such a solution, and you just know that someone, nevertheless,  will complain that it's too complicated (-:

Or maybe an option you can pass to 'zf create project...' like --spoon-feed-me=true (-:


--
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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Re: so complex!

aoohralex
Somebody should create ZF sandbox (this is idea from Symfony Framework - SF has got SF sandbox for new users)  - with layouts, with connection to database (with empty fields to write login, password and dsn), with Bootstrap file with fully content. Then I could only download it, write login, password and dsn to database and start programming.
I have read that Symfony Framework is for very big websides and Zend Framework is for small and medium websites - I don't know is this truth but the most popular frameworks are: Zend Framework, Symfony Framework and unfortunately CakePHP (CakePHP is also for PHP 4 so this framework is bad).

I think ZF sandbox - this is a good idea.


And please stop use on this forum and in tutorials - idioms and slang - ZF is only for people where national language is English or not ? Not, so stop use idioms and slang !!
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Re: so complex!

SpiffyJr

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 01:28:51 -0700 (PDT), aoohralex <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> Somebody should create ZF sandbox (this is idea from Symfony Framework -
SF
> has got SF sandbox for new users)  - with layouts, with connection to
> database (with empty fields to write login, password and dsn), with
> Bootstrap file with fully content. Then I could only download it, write
> login, password and dsn to database and start programming.
> I have read that Symfony Framework is for very big websides and Zend
> Framework is for small and medium websites - I don't know is this truth
but
> the most popular frameworks are: Zend Framework, Symfony Framework and
> unfortunately CakePHP (CakePHP is also for PHP 4 so this framework is
bad).
>
> I think ZF sandbox - this is a good idea.
>
>
> And please stop use on this forum and in tutorials - idioms and slang -
ZF
> is only for people where national language is English or not ? Not, so
stop
> use idioms and slang !!

Using Zend Tool you can do zf create project <name> and it does everything
for you. The only thing you need to do is add the following to your
application.ini file.

resources.db.adapter = "PDO_MYSQL"
resources.db.params.host = "localhost"
resources.db.params.dbname = "dbname"
resources.db.params.username = "username"
resources.db.params.password = "password"

After that, you have your sandbox. I fail to understand why so many people
are having issues with this.
Kyle S
blogs @ www.spiffyjr.me
github @ www.github.com/spiffyjr
follow @ www.twitter.com/spiffyjr
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Re: so complex!

aoohralex
Does Zend Tool generate for me bootstrap file with content ? How ? Because now I have a problem with layout and I think it can have relation with bootstrap so maybe this tool can generate good bootstrap with layout ?
Subject - here: http://www.nabble.com/strange-problem-with-layout-td25508565.html
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Re: so complex!

SpiffyJr

aoohralex wrote
Does Zend Tool generate for me bootstrap file with content ? How ? Because now I have a problem with layout and I think it can have relation with bootstrap so maybe this tool can generate good bootstrap with layout ?
Subject - here: http://www.nabble.com/strange-problem-with-layout-td25508565.html
For more information see:
http://devzone.zend.com/article/3811
http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/zend.tool.framework.html
http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/zend.tool.project.html
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Zend+Tool
Kyle S
blogs @ www.spiffyjr.me
github @ www.github.com/spiffyjr
follow @ www.twitter.com/spiffyjr
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Re: so complex!

aoohralex
I have seen these all sites :/
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Re: so complex!

Silverstorm
Omg, man you just blows my mind.
I have enought of reading your emo-cry post diuring
last days in my rss reader on this great nabble channel.

What are you looking for? You got everything you've asked for from this
great community but you still behave like everybody are in charge to you.
ZF is simply great framework - if you cant handle it, I have bad news for you, you are far from beeing a true programmer.

You like symfony - go to its community and cry there then.


P.S. I'd like to say sorry to the rest of community, I've just shown the way we should not treat newbies... But I just cant stand people who cant do anything themselves - zf has great docs, clear sourcecode to read, api docs, hundreds of tutorials online, at least one full featured book and great helpful community here - so use your brain before screaming 'i dont understand!' - work untill you will.

P.p.s. And... Do not overuse capslock - its really awful.
aoohralex wrote
I have seen these all sites :/
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