so complex!

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Re: so complex!

Matthew Ratzloff
That said, I've heard a number of complaints about users unable to get
the quickstart running -- and almost all of them are due to not
understanding how to install and configure a web server. It only makes
sense, then, that we spend some time detailing how to configure, at
the least, Apache, such that you can get a virtual host up and running
and pointed at your project.

Incorporating the content form this wiki page into the quick start or learning sections might be useful to that end (as part of a larger tutorial).

Having been involved in the community since the initial preview release (March 2006), I haven't had the experience of trying to learn the entire framework cold, but I have heard the comment about its steep learning curve before.

I think any sufficiently large software framework or library will necessarily have a steep learning curve.  I would suggest approaching these in the same way: learn only what you need to learn to get up and running, focus on understanding it thoroughly, and only afterward build on that knowledge gradually over time.  A thorough understanding of the core components will inform you about how to use other components, and things won't seem so overwhelming.  I would even suggest avoiding the zf command until you can do it yourself manually.

In any event, experience with design patterns (primarily Gang of Four) helps immensely, as well as a willingness to look at the actual code that makes up the framework (in any project, the DocBlocks are always more up-to-date than the manual).

-Matt

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm going to top-post here, as there's an extensive thread already, and
I want to summarize some of the ideas.

First, we do make a number of assumptions: (1) you understand PHP, (2)
you know how to setup a web server, and (3) you have used and written
PHP classes. Are these inappropriate assumptions? I'd like to think not;
how can you accurately judge the benefits a framework provides you
unless you have a baseline to compare against?

That said, I've heard a number of complaints about users unable to get
the quickstart running -- and almost all of them are due to not
understanding how to install and configure a web server. It only makes
sense, then, that we spend some time detailing how to configure, at
the least, Apache, such that you can get a virtual host up and running
and pointed at your project.

On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a more
tutorial oriented section to the manual. The current manual is primarily
a reference guide -- it details how to use each component, but not
necessarily how to use the components together. The new section, which
we are titling, "Learning Zend Framework," will contain a number of
tutorials geared at getting users up and running, as well as more
intermediate tutorials showing more advanced topics like approaches to
models, integrating ACLs into your application, etc.

You can track our progress via svn:

   http://framework.zend.com/svn/framework/standard/branches/user/zf-devteam/documentation/manual/en

(We're not doing this on trunk as of yet, as there are some large
changes to the manual organization that we need to integrate later.)

One benefit of this is that tutorials such as the quick start will now
be part of the manual -- meaning we can offer translations, but also
that you, as developers, can help us make the tutorials better.

If there are areas where you've been stuck or could have used more
information, let us know, and we can begin adding more tutorials.

-- huajun qi <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Wednesday, 16 September 2009, 11:28 AM +0800):
>
> Hi, i am a freshman to use zend framework.
>
> I watched your screenshot video, and then i think zf is easy to use, but when i
> begin to work, i find it so complex!
>
> Yes, the example you show in the video is so simple, it include only one class,
> as an example, it works fine.
>
> But i read the read the quick start doc, the way to use zf is totally
> different, i do not like to use command line, it is so sick! I want to build a
> project like the video shows!
>
> But the video doesn't mention how to bootstrap, how to include many components,
> how to build a real but not an example project at all.
>
> So, any body know what should i do after i create new project folder, and put
> the zend library in it?
>
> How to initialize the components I need?
>
> Where to write a configuration file and how to include it?
>
> Should I create a bootstrap.php file?
>
> Why do not you make a regular, fluent, detailed document to present how to
> build a project without using command line?
>
> --
> Location:

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/

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Re: so complex!

J DeBord
In reply to this post by Nikolaos Dimopoulos
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Nikolaos Dimopoulos <[hidden email]> wrote:
<0.02>

ZF (or any framework) can be extremely intimidating even to competent programmers that English is not their native tongue. I have lived in English speaking countries for the best part of 15 years and still I cannot translate in my native language the difference between a decorator, a validator and other terms used in the framework. Don't even try to get me started on plugins :)

I believe that the best approach for a novice (which I am one) is to use ZF as a glue component. Don't try to dive into the MVC just yet. Code your application the way you usually do and glue ZF components to it. Once you are comfortable with those components your transition to the full MVC architecture will be much easier than any previous attempts.

Finally be curious and ask questions. By far the ZF lists are the most helpful that I have ever seen. There is no RTFM here and people are extremely helpful even if the question appears to be a dumb one or has been answered a million times.

I want to emphsize the point above. I also want to thank everyone that has made this list so great. I recently unsubscriebd from the php mailing list

</0.02>
Best regards

Nikolaos Dimopoulos

The contents of this message may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended solely for the recipient(s). Use or distribution to and by any other party is not authorized. If you are not the intended recipient, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited.



On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:26, Duo Zheng <[hidden email]> wrote:
Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

I proposed the improvement a few days ago here: http://framework.zend.com/issues/browse/ZF-7839


On Sep 16, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Andreas Kraftl wrote:

Am Mittwoch, den 16.09.2009, 08:26 -0400 schrieb Matthew Weier
O'Phinney:

On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a more
tutorial oriented section to the manual.

I love this idea. But another idea is, to extend the manual with two
small things.

Every class where it make sense, should describe how to interact with
Zend_Application and how to initialize it in the bootstrap. Second is,
to describe some unittests.

Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

Or more better, Zend_Tool can do this.

The main problem this time is, that Zend_Application is a very good and
in the meantime a central point of the Framework. But the documentation
covers all before Zend Framework 1.8.

If i am right, I think the manual should be written more in the
direction Zend_Application.


Last point: whenever you say a programmer should know how to create
things ...
A programmer knows better, how to delete things than a not programmer
knows how to add things.

I am not sure, if Zend Framework would be a framework for week
programmers or beginners. But if so, then change direction of thought
how to write the manual.

Thanks and greetings
Andreas
--
Kraftl EDV - Dienstleistungen
Linux, Linuxschulungen, Webprogrammierung
Autofabrikstraße 16/6
1230 Wien




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RE: so complex!

SethA
In reply to this post by Franck Delage-2
If I may add a couple more cents to the discussion. Having also gone through the process of learning the framework through much googling and at times gnashing of teeth, and am in the process of coming out the other side, I can offer what I think will be some useful suggestions.

First identifying one or two of the "problems". I say problems loosely because it is the flip side of a coin. ZF is under constant development and enhancement. That is a good thing. But it creates a number of big challenges for newbies. As recent as a few weeks ago, I was looking through the documentation in a section that should have been re-written given the changes with 1.8. Now there are new sections added for Zend_App and so forth, which is good, but other related sections that are now impacted by the new bootstrap and new autoloader seem to have been overlooked, or are slow to be revised to show the new way of doing things.

Second, there is almost a cottage industry out there for start-up tutorials. Not because ZF doesn't have one, but more likely because it is a tad bit too over-simplistic. Hence you have Akrabat and so forth out there. Some are maintained (meaning they are current with the latest release), others are not. That isn't ZF's fault of course. But a beginner learning and having to google a bit is faced with lots of outdated explanations and tutorials, and weeding through them is a task in itself. Again, not necessarily ZF's fault.

I think the main suggestions I can offer is to be more rigorous around the documentation set. Version the docs and maintain an archive of those versions. So there is a doc set for 1.7, 1.8, 1.9, etc. If someone is still using 1.7, they need to be able to look up things without having 1.8 ways of doing things creeping into view. Or vice versa. And be rigorous about going through all the sections and updating as needed. So if I am looking at docs for 1.8, I shouldn't see 1.7 ways of auto-loading in the code examples of other sections. At least that is not what I would expect to see. I don't want to be overly critical, because I know documentation doesn't pay the bills, but I don't think it is unreasonable to make these suggestions on how to improve.

The second item seems like it is already being addressed from the reply's of some others. I can only echo the need for more tutorials and better organization of those on the website. One difficulty I've had with ZF is that there are often multiple ways of doing the same thing. For example, there are probably (at least) three different ways of constructing a form (method chaining, array notation, creating the elements individually then attach them with addElements, vs addElement and then defining them via magic methods, etc, etc). Usually the docs only show one of those ways in detail, and are light on another way, and perhaps even omit entirely yet a third or forth way. I don't think the standard documentation is necessarily the best place to show every possibility, because useability starts to get impacted with the growth of details. Maybe this is where tutorials come in. Related to that, often times I've struggled with identifying the pros and cons of the different ways of accomplishing the same task. The docs tend to omit this type of distinction, and it would be useful in many cases to have this provided.


--Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Franck Delage [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:59 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!

Just to answer to Matthew :

Matthew Weier O'Phinney a écrit :
| First, we do make a number of assumptions: (1) you understand PHP, (2)
| you know how to setup a web server, and (3) you have used and written
| PHP classes. Are these inappropriate assumptions? I'd like to think
| not; how can you accurately judge the benefits a framework provides
| you unless you have a baseline to compare against?

Of course these are not inappropriate assumptions.

A framework is not one of those "softwares" which theorically allows you to build a wonderful website in 10 clicks. It's a tool, and a tool needs a worker.

You can buy the latest beautiful Facom screwdriver, if you don't know in which direction you unscrew...

M, thank you for your work.

--
Franck Delage
Création et hébergements de sites web
www.web82.net
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Re: so complex!

weierophinney
Administrator
-- Seth Atkins <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Wednesday, 16 September 2009, 01:21 PM -0500):
> I think the main suggestions I can offer is to be more rigorous around
> the documentation set. Version the docs and maintain an archive of
> those versions. So there is a doc set for 1.7, 1.8, 1.9, etc. If
> someone is still using 1.7, they need to be able to look up things
> without having 1.8 ways of doing things creeping into view.  Or vice
> versa.

The documentation *is* versioned, and you can download documentation for
any given release from the archives page:

    http://framework.zend.com/download/archives

One initiative already underway is to offer versioned documentation on
the ZF site itself, however. We hope to do this for the 1.10 release,
but it requires a fair bit of site infrastucture for us to accomplish.

> And be rigorous about going through all the sections and updating as
> needed. So if I am looking at docs for 1.8, I shouldn't see 1.7 ways
> of auto-loading in the code examples of other sections.  At least that
> is not what I would expect to see. I don't want to be overly critical,
> because I know documentation doesn't pay the bills, but I don't think
> it is unreasonable to make these suggestions on how to improve.

I don't disagree with you. But how do you propose doing so?

Zend_Application definitely changes the way we look at bootstrapping --
but I can assure you that, until it was brought up on this thread, it
never occurred to me that changes *elsewhere* in the manual were
necessary. What I'm trying to say is: how do we determine if changes in
a given component or a new component will require updates elsewhere in
the manual? Many component authors work on a single component, or
several related components, and have no idea how other components may
make use of them. While we on the Zend team try to mitigate such issues,
the fact of the matter is that with ZF the size it is, this is a pretty
difficult task.

So, my challenge to you is to come up with a workflow for doing so. :)

> The second item seems like it is already being addressed from the
> reply's of some others. I can only echo the need for more tutorials
> and better organization of those on the website. One difficulty I've
> had with ZF is that there are often multiple ways of doing the same
> thing. For example, there are probably (at least) three different ways
> of constructing a form (method chaining, array notation, creating the
> elements individually then attach them with addElements, vs addElement
> and then defining them via magic methods, etc, etc). Usually the docs
> only show one of those ways in detail, and are light on another way,
> and perhaps even omit entirely yet a third or forth way. I don't think
> the standard documentation is necessarily the best place to show every
> possibility, because useability starts to get impacted with the growth
> of details. Maybe this is where tutorials come in. Related to that,
> often times I've struggled with identifying the pros and cons of the
> different ways of accomplishing the same task. The docs tend to omit
> this type of distinction, and it would be useful in many cases to have
> this provided.

Some of these distinctions are difficult to determine until the
component has adoption. For instance, one method of use may be more
performant than another, but until a number of developers have used and
benchmarked each method, we cannot know.

As for documenting all use cases: this is a known problem, and one I'm
having difficulty coming up with a solution for. One issue is that we
build ZF to be extensible and flexible -- but those qualities often make
it very difficult to document.

Our plan for the "Learning Zend Framework" section of the manual is to
showcase what we on the team (or contributors) feel are best practices
for a variety of components, particularly when architecting a
full-featured website. I'm pretty confident that it will answer many of
the questions and concerns you and others have raised, but it's only a
start; we also need to examine the reference guide and make sure it also
gives a consistent message.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Franck Delage [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:59 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!
>
> Just to answer to Matthew :
>
> Matthew Weier O'Phinney a écrit :
> | First, we do make a number of assumptions: (1) you understand PHP, (2)
> | you know how to setup a web server, and (3) you have used and written
> | PHP classes. Are these inappropriate assumptions? I'd like to think
> | not; how can you accurately judge the benefits a framework provides
> | you unless you have a baseline to compare against?
>
> Of course these are not inappropriate assumptions.
>
> A framework is not one of those "softwares" which theorically allows you to build a wonderful website in 10 clicks. It's a tool, and a tool needs a worker.
>
> You can buy the latest beautiful Facom screwdriver, if you don't know in which direction you unscrew...
>
> M, thank you for your work.
>
> --
> Franck Delage
> Création et hébergements de sites web
> www.web82.net
>

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
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RE: so complex!

SethA
In reply to this post by David Mintz
Whoever it was that posted the diagram for the engine the other day, what would be awesome is a similar diagram for the view rendering process if such a diagram exists. Still a bit of a black box to me, and pretty difficult to follow the code in a methodical manner (using a debugger to step through tends to give you a very limited scope of only what parts you are leveraging with your app).
 

 

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Re: so complex!

Nathan Garlington
+1. What a great idea!

--
Regards,
Nathan @ T&R Trailer Sales

Tel: 719-546-2321
Fax: 719-404-4697


> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Seth Atkins <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Whoever it was that posted the diagram for the engine the other day, what
>> would be awesome is a similar diagram for the view rendering process if such
>> a diagram exists. Still a bit of a black box to me, and pretty difficult to
>> follow the code in a methodical manner (using a debugger to step through
>> tends to give you a very limited scope of only what parts you are leveraging
>> with your app).
>>
>>
>>
>
--regards, Nathan Garlington Zend Framework + Dojo http://www.tandrtrailer.com
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Re: so complex!

huajun qi
In reply to this post by Nikolaos Dimopoulos
Good advice, I will try to use zf as comfortable as i can.

2009/9/16 Nikolaos Dimopoulos <[hidden email]>
<0.02>

ZF (or any framework) can be extremely intimidating even to competent programmers that English is not their native tongue. I have lived in English speaking countries for the best part of 15 years and still I cannot translate in my native language the difference between a decorator, a validator and other terms used in the framework. Don't even try to get me started on plugins :)

I believe that the best approach for a novice (which I am one) is to use ZF as a glue component. Don't try to dive into the MVC just yet. Code your application the way you usually do and glue ZF components to it. Once you are comfortable with those components your transition to the full MVC architecture will be much easier than any previous attempts.

Finally be curious and ask questions. By far the ZF lists are the most helpful that I have ever seen. There is no RTFM here and people are extremely helpful even if the question appears to be a dumb one or has been answered a million times.

</0.02>
Best regards

Nikolaos Dimopoulos

The contents of this message may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended solely for the recipient(s). Use or distribution to and by any other party is not authorized. If you are not the intended recipient, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited.



On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:26, Duo Zheng <[hidden email]> wrote:
Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

I proposed the improvement a few days ago here: http://framework.zend.com/issues/browse/ZF-7839


On Sep 16, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Andreas Kraftl wrote:

Am Mittwoch, den 16.09.2009, 08:26 -0400 schrieb Matthew Weier
O'Phinney:

On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a more
tutorial oriented section to the manual.

I love this idea. But another idea is, to extend the manual with two
small things.

Every class where it make sense, should describe how to interact with
Zend_Application and how to initialize it in the bootstrap. Second is,
to describe some unittests.

Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

Or more better, Zend_Tool can do this.

The main problem this time is, that Zend_Application is a very good and
in the meantime a central point of the Framework. But the documentation
covers all before Zend Framework 1.8.

If i am right, I think the manual should be written more in the
direction Zend_Application.


Last point: whenever you say a programmer should know how to create
things ...
A programmer knows better, how to delete things than a not programmer
knows how to add things.

I am not sure, if Zend Framework would be a framework for week
programmers or beginners. But if so, then change direction of thought
how to write the manual.

Thanks and greetings
Andreas
--
Kraftl EDV - Dienstleistungen
Linux, Linuxschulungen, Webprogrammierung
Autofabrikstraße 16/6
1230 Wien






--
Location:
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Re: so complex!

huajun qi
Thanks all you guys, it takes long time to read this list of mails. But after that, i am sure that I choose the right framework, at least i can get lots of answers when i meet some problems.

When it comes to ZF, it is good enough too.I am not a stupid programmer, and i think i can learn to master it. Your sharing helps a lot.

2009/9/17 huajun qi <[hidden email]>
Good advice, I will try to use zf as comfortable as i can.

2009/9/16 Nikolaos Dimopoulos <[hidden email]>

<0.02>

ZF (or any framework) can be extremely intimidating even to competent programmers that English is not their native tongue. I have lived in English speaking countries for the best part of 15 years and still I cannot translate in my native language the difference between a decorator, a validator and other terms used in the framework. Don't even try to get me started on plugins :)

I believe that the best approach for a novice (which I am one) is to use ZF as a glue component. Don't try to dive into the MVC just yet. Code your application the way you usually do and glue ZF components to it. Once you are comfortable with those components your transition to the full MVC architecture will be much easier than any previous attempts.

Finally be curious and ask questions. By far the ZF lists are the most helpful that I have ever seen. There is no RTFM here and people are extremely helpful even if the question appears to be a dumb one or has been answered a million times.

</0.02>
Best regards

Nikolaos Dimopoulos

The contents of this message may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended solely for the recipient(s). Use or distribution to and by any other party is not authorized. If you are not the intended recipient, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited.



On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:26, Duo Zheng <[hidden email]> wrote:
Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

I proposed the improvement a few days ago here: http://framework.zend.com/issues/browse/ZF-7839


On Sep 16, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Andreas Kraftl wrote:

Am Mittwoch, den 16.09.2009, 08:26 -0400 schrieb Matthew Weier
O'Phinney:

On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a more
tutorial oriented section to the manual.

I love this idea. But another idea is, to extend the manual with two
small things.

Every class where it make sense, should describe how to interact with
Zend_Application and how to initialize it in the bootstrap. Second is,
to describe some unittests.

Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

Or more better, Zend_Tool can do this.

The main problem this time is, that Zend_Application is a very good and
in the meantime a central point of the Framework. But the documentation
covers all before Zend Framework 1.8.

If i am right, I think the manual should be written more in the
direction Zend_Application.


Last point: whenever you say a programmer should know how to create
things ...
A programmer knows better, how to delete things than a not programmer
knows how to add things.

I am not sure, if Zend Framework would be a framework for week
programmers or beginners. But if so, then change direction of thought
how to write the manual.

Thanks and greetings
Andreas
--
Kraftl EDV - Dienstleistungen
Linux, Linuxschulungen, Webprogrammierung
Autofabrikstraße 16/6
1230 Wien






--
Location:



--
Location:
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Re: so complex!

huajun qi
In reply to this post by weierophinney
I am looking forward to the tutorials. I have checked it out, but i don't know how to read it? Need i compile it?

And a question in detail:

Which way to bootstrap is better and regular?

According to my understanding, to bootstrap in index.php is an old way in former versions, bootstrap.php as a bootstraper is included lately, right?

So it means the bootstrap is better choice, right?

And what's the relationship of bootstrap.php (or index.php) and Zend_Loader?

I am reading your reference guide, i will try to find answer myself.

2009/9/16 Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]>
I'm going to top-post here, as there's an extensive thread already, and
I want to summarize some of the ideas.

First, we do make a number of assumptions: (1) you understand PHP, (2)
you know how to setup a web server, and (3) you have used and written
PHP classes. Are these inappropriate assumptions? I'd like to think not;
how can you accurately judge the benefits a framework provides you
unless you have a baseline to compare against?

That said, I've heard a number of complaints about users unable to get
the quickstart running -- and almost all of them are due to not
understanding how to install and configure a web server. It only makes
sense, then, that we spend some time detailing how to configure, at
the least, Apache, such that you can get a virtual host up and running
and pointed at your project.

On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a more
tutorial oriented section to the manual. The current manual is primarily
a reference guide -- it details how to use each component, but not
necessarily how to use the components together. The new section, which
we are titling, "Learning Zend Framework," will contain a number of
tutorials geared at getting users up and running, as well as more
intermediate tutorials showing more advanced topics like approaches to
models, integrating ACLs into your application, etc.

You can track our progress via svn:

   http://framework.zend.com/svn/framework/standard/branches/user/zf-devteam/documentation/manual/en

(We're not doing this on trunk as of yet, as there are some large
changes to the manual organization that we need to integrate later.)

One benefit of this is that tutorials such as the quick start will now
be part of the manual -- meaning we can offer translations, but also
that you, as developers, can help us make the tutorials better.

If there are areas where you've been stuck or could have used more
information, let us know, and we can begin adding more tutorials.

-- huajun qi <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Wednesday, 16 September 2009, 11:28 AM +0800):
>
> Hi, i am a freshman to use zend framework.
>
> I watched your screenshot video, and then i think zf is easy to use, but when i
> begin to work, i find it so complex!
>
> Yes, the example you show in the video is so simple, it include only one class,
> as an example, it works fine.
>
> But i read the read the quick start doc, the way to use zf is totally
> different, i do not like to use command line, it is so sick! I want to build a
> project like the video shows!
>
> But the video doesn't mention how to bootstrap, how to include many components,
> how to build a real but not an example project at all.
>
> So, any body know what should i do after i create new project folder, and put
> the zend library in it?
>
> How to initialize the components I need?
>
> Where to write a configuration file and how to include it?
>
> Should I create a bootstrap.php file?
>
> Why do not you make a regular, fluent, detailed document to present how to
> build a project without using command line?
>
> --
> Location:

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/




--
Location:
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RE: so complex!

Mert Oztekin
In reply to this post by neobeacon
For me, sometimes reading a running project's code is much more useful than reading a tutorial or doc. Because I can see how different classes can interact and how different coders uses them as an instrument.
 
As a newbie ZF coder, i am still having difficulties to find ZF project source codes. If there may be a page listing sample projects(with source code / even its developers can be listed so we can communicate them) in Framework.zend.com, people who think like me, can make us of it.
 
Also zend may encourage developers to publish their projects on zend.com or zend may start a huge open source project (like crm,erp ...) for volunteer developers. This project, in support by Zend, may show how ZF can be used as a excellent application Framework.
 
--sory for my poor english--
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: neobeacon [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [fw-mvc] so complex!
 
 
I am a very beginner to zend framework.I also accept that the beginning is
always difficult.I think that the framework must be handle auto loading
views, helpers, models by default with a conventional modular structure.
Anyway this is a brilliant framework.
 
I also stuck in the beginning(even now),in those days I found a brilliant
tutorial by Jeroen Keppens to
create a modular application with Zend Framework .I think that this
information will be helpful for anyone who want to create a modular
application.
 
The mailing lists and forums are very good places for getting a solution for
problems.But I think that addressing must be friendly.
--
Sent from the Zend MVC mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
 

  ________________________________  
Bu mesaj ve ekleri, mesajda gönderildiği belirtilen kişi/kişilere özeldir ve gizlidir. Size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa lütfen gönderen kisiyi bilgilendiriniz ve mesajı sisteminizden siliniz. Mesaj ve eklerinin içeriği ile ilgili olarak şirketimizin herhangi bir hukuki sorumluluğu bulunmamaktadır. Şirketimiz mesajın ve bilgilerinin size değişikliğe uğrayarak veya geç ulaşmasından, bütünlüğünün ve gizliliğinin korunamamasından, virüs içermesinden ve bilgisayar sisteminize verebileceği herhangi bir zarardan sorumlu tutulamaz.

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Re: so complex!

Juozas
In reply to this post by huajun qi
Hi list,

after working as a Zend Framework consultant for a while, I can say that the biggest problem I faced is how easy it is to get it very wrong. From my experience, it's very common to people who have been doing PHP at some layer for a long time. It's usually one big pile of spaghetti code somewhere inside application folder.

Why it happens? Again, from my point of view - because people start using frameworks without good knowledge about MVC, patterns and how in general good code should look like. Even though it takes only a few days to get them doing it in a proper way, it's still very surprising. For example, I myself started using zend framework after a very long time reading about it (even now I follow >50 blogs somehow related to zf) and trying all sorts of different things in my own implementation of a framework :) But after this trials and errors time I truly believe that I understand how framework actually works, not just how to use it's classes.

That's one of the problems I have seen before and keep seeing it all the time - people learn framework as a bunch of classes, not how it works and how it might be used in any context. The problem I see, people need to start using IDE - not because it's X, but if I have a problem I just click a Ctrl+Click function name and see how it works internally. A lot of times people just seems to be working with frameworks (not only zend) as a dll file (even though dll files can have documentation) - source code is hidden, no idea what it's doing, try until it works. Hello! Zend framework code is just a bunch of php files, open them and read :)

Why I started using zend framework and why I think it is the best (for me) - it's extraordinary tool for a custom system. Yes, you can build blog in 15 min in any framework (maybe longer with zend?), but that's not the point. During last years I was building big, truly enterprise level applications. Admin module and public module just don't work here - I need to divide my code in to actual modules (products, warehouse, pricing, orders, etc.) and in them encapsulate their behavior + different functionality for admin/public/supplier etc. That's where Zend framework kicks in - few plugins, helpers and off you go.

In conclusion, Zend framework is complex. And it should be. Sorry, but it's just impossible to have beginners friendly and experts friendly framework :) Starting from a fact, that I don't want zend framework to imply anything how I should use it, but beginners probably would and ending with decorators, plugins, helpers etc. which are wonderful for me, but black-box for some. So, the final though - learn the framework, not it's classes and you be fine to use any framework.

Regards,
Juozas Kaziukenas

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 8:40 AM, huajun qi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks all you guys, it takes long time to read this list of mails. But after that, i am sure that I choose the right framework, at least i can get lots of answers when i meet some problems.

When it comes to ZF, it is good enough too.I am not a stupid programmer, and i think i can learn to master it. Your sharing helps a lot.

2009/9/17 huajun qi <[hidden email]>

Good advice, I will try to use zf as comfortable as i can.

2009/9/16 Nikolaos Dimopoulos <[hidden email]>

<0.02>

ZF (or any framework) can be extremely intimidating even to competent programmers that English is not their native tongue. I have lived in English speaking countries for the best part of 15 years and still I cannot translate in my native language the difference between a decorator, a validator and other terms used in the framework. Don't even try to get me started on plugins :)

I believe that the best approach for a novice (which I am one) is to use ZF as a glue component. Don't try to dive into the MVC just yet. Code your application the way you usually do and glue ZF components to it. Once you are comfortable with those components your transition to the full MVC architecture will be much easier than any previous attempts.

Finally be curious and ask questions. By far the ZF lists are the most helpful that I have ever seen. There is no RTFM here and people are extremely helpful even if the question appears to be a dumb one or has been answered a million times.

</0.02>
Best regards

Nikolaos Dimopoulos

The contents of this message may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended solely for the recipient(s). Use or distribution to and by any other party is not authorized. If you are not the intended recipient, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited.



On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:26, Duo Zheng <[hidden email]> wrote:
Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

I proposed the improvement a few days ago here: http://framework.zend.com/issues/browse/ZF-7839


On Sep 16, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Andreas Kraftl wrote:

Am Mittwoch, den 16.09.2009, 08:26 -0400 schrieb Matthew Weier
O'Phinney:

On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a more
tutorial oriented section to the manual.

I love this idea. But another idea is, to extend the manual with two
small things.

Every class where it make sense, should describe how to interact with
Zend_Application and how to initialize it in the bootstrap. Second is,
to describe some unittests.

Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

Or more better, Zend_Tool can do this.

The main problem this time is, that Zend_Application is a very good and
in the meantime a central point of the Framework. But the documentation
covers all before Zend Framework 1.8.

If i am right, I think the manual should be written more in the
direction Zend_Application.


Last point: whenever you say a programmer should know how to create
things ...
A programmer knows better, how to delete things than a not programmer
knows how to add things.

I am not sure, if Zend Framework would be a framework for week
programmers or beginners. But if so, then change direction of thought
how to write the manual.

Thanks and greetings
Andreas
--
Kraftl EDV - Dienstleistungen
Linux, Linuxschulungen, Webprogrammierung
Autofabrikstraße 16/6
1230 Wien






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Re: so complex!

huajun qi
In reply to this post by Mert Oztekin
Actually, there is!


But unfortunately i found the examples they listed unuseable!

2009/9/17 Mert Oztekin <[hidden email]>
For me, sometimes reading a running project's code is much more useful than reading a tutorial or doc. Because I can see how different classes can interact and how different coders uses them as an instrument.
 
As a newbie ZF coder, i am still having difficulties to find ZF project source codes. If there may be a page listing sample projects(with source code / even its developers can be listed so we can communicate them) in Framework.zend.com, people who think like me, can make us of it.
 
Also zend may encourage developers to publish their projects on zend.com or zend may start a huge open source project (like crm,erp ...) for volunteer developers. This project, in support by Zend, may show how ZF can be used as a excellent application Framework.
 
--sory for my poor english--
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: neobeacon [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [fw-mvc] so complex!
 
 
I am a very beginner to zend framework.I also accept that the beginning is
always difficult.I think that the framework must be handle auto loading
views, helpers, models by default with a conventional modular structure.
Anyway this is a brilliant framework.
 
I also stuck in the beginning(even now),in those days I found a brilliant
tutorial by Jeroen Keppens to
create a modular application with Zend Framework .I think that this
information will be helpful for anyone who want to create a modular
application.
 
The mailing lists and forums are very good places for getting a solution for
problems.But I think that addressing must be friendly.
--
Sent from the Zend MVC mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
 

  ________________________________  
Bu mesaj ve ekleri, mesajda gönderildiği belirtilen kişi/kişilere özeldir ve gizlidir. Size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa lütfen gönderen kisiyi bilgilendiriniz ve mesajı sisteminizden siliniz. Mesaj ve eklerinin içeriği ile ilgili olarak şirketimizin herhangi bir hukuki sorumluluğu bulunmamaktadır. Şirketimiz mesajın ve bilgilerinin size değişikliğe uğrayarak veya geç ulaşmasından, bütünlüğünün ve gizliliğinin korunamamasından, virüs içermesinden ve bilgisayar sisteminize verebileceği herhangi bir zarardan sorumlu tutulamaz.

This message and attachments are confidential and intended for the individual(s) stated in this message. If you received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete it from your system. Our company has no legal responsibility for the contents of the message and its attachments. Our company shall have no liability for any changes or late receiving, loss of integrity and confidentiality, viruses and any damages caused in anyway to your computer system.



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Re: so complex!

aoohralex
In reply to this post by Matthew Ratzloff
huajun - Zend Framework is bad framework. It is too flexible, many strange things You must make by yourself - for example adds to bootstrap:
protected function _initAutoload()
    {
        $moduleLoader = new Zend_Application_Module_Autoloader(array(
                        'namespace' => '',
                        'basePath' => APPLICATION_PATH));
                return $moduleLoader;
    }

I still don't understand why. You must create connection to database by yourself or create layout.


The truth is that ZF is so popular because it was written by authors of PHP so for example I must know this framework because of that. If this framework was created by somebody else it would have been medium framework - not bad, not good.

There are much better frameworks than ZF. My favorite is Symfony but in Symfony You must also use console - for example for clear cache - but it is very comfortable.
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Re: so complex!

Graham Anderson
On Thursday 17 September 2009 13:35:22 aoohralex wrote:
>huajun - Zend Framework is bad framework. It is too flexible, many strange
>things You must make by myself - for example adds to bootstraps:

I don't think I've read anything quite so ridiculous on this list in a while.

In Symfony, you do things the Symfony way. In Prado, you do things the Prado
way. In Zend Framework, you do things the Zend Framework way.

*That's the bottom line.*

--
“Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes.”
 ☘ Oscar Wilde
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Re: so complex!

Christoph Rust :: von Affenfels
In reply to this post by aoohralex
huajun - Zend Framework is bad framework. It is too flexible, many strange

> things You must make by myself - for example adds to bootstraps:
>
>
> The truth is that ZF is so popular because it was written by authors of PHP
> so for example I must know this framework because of that. If this framework
> was created by somebody else it would have been medium framework - not bad,
> not good.
>
> There are much better frameworks than ZF. My favorite is Symfony but in
> Symfony You must also use console - for example for clear cache - but it is
> very comfortable.
>  
Zend Framework is to be honest the best php framework available,  
because it covers all possible requirements (private hompage, bussines
application, high-performance web application).
Symfony on the other side might be easy to use, but it's not
customizable enought, if you want to do tricky things (e.q. the
controller or routing strategy), performance is very bad and the plugins
are not handy...
If you think Zend Framework is to difficult for you, use dreamwaver or
even M$ frontpage to get your site done.
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Re: so complex!

mlurz71
In reply to this post by Graham Anderson
It's a matter of flexibility/customisability vs automation in my opinion.

On one end if the spectrum are CRUD builders which offer very rapid
development, but which are much more difficult to customise and extend.

On the other end, I suppose, lives very abstract, basic plumbing
facilities. Easy to customize, but you're doing more work than you should
have to.

Having evaluated quite a few frameworks, I think the ZF has hit a real
sweet spot and my hat is off to all of the developers and contributors.

Nothing is perfect, but the ZF has made me a much more productive and
happy developer. At the end of the day that's all that matters to me. If
something better comes along, I'd surely like to know but from where I
stand right now I can't hardly imagine such a tool (at least in PHP land).

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009, Graham Anderson wrote:

> On Thursday 17 September 2009 13:35:22 aoohralex wrote:
>> huajun - Zend Framework is bad framework. It is too flexible, many strange
>> things You must make by myself - for example adds to bootstraps:
>
> I don't think I've read anything quite so ridiculous on this list in a while.
>
> In Symfony, you do things the Symfony way. In Prado, you do things the Prado
> way. In Zend Framework, you do things the Zend Framework way.
>
> *That's the bottom line.*
>
> --
> “Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes.”
> ☘ Oscar Wilde
>
>
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Re: so complex!

aoohralex
I am sure that Symfony Framework isn't easier. I also sure that in SF everything has sense and I can easy find help. And I am sure that I still don't understand this strange method which I must add to Bootstrap:

protected function _initAutoload()
    {
        $moduleLoader = new Zend_Application_Module_Autoloader(array(
                        'namespace' => '',
                        'basePath' => APPLICATION_PATH));
                return $moduleLoader;
    }


I had to add something what I don't understand !! This is horrible !!
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Re: so complex!

Matthew Ratzloff
In reply to this post by aoohralex
Instead of posting inflammatory e-mails denigrating the work of dozens of individuals, perhaps you should just use Symfony exclusively from now on.  You've made it clear where you stand, and no productive discussion is going to result from your latest e-mail.

Zend Framework was not written by the "authors of PHP", by the way.

-Matt

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:35 AM, aoohralex <[hidden email]> wrote:

huajun - Zend Framework is bad framework. It is too flexible, many strange
things You must make by myself - for example adds to bootstraps:


The truth is that ZF is so popular because it was written by authors of PHP
so for example I must know this framework because of that. If this framework
was created by somebody else it would have been medium framework - not bad,
not good.

There are much better frameworks than ZF. My favorite is Symfony but in
Symfony You must also use console - for example for clear cache - but it is
very comfortable.
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/so-complex%21-tp25465392p25489622.html
Sent from the Zend MVC mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: so complex!

weierophinney
Administrator
In reply to this post by huajun qi
-- huajun qi <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Thursday, 17 September 2009, 02:48 PM +0800):
> I am looking forward to the tutorials. I have checked it out, but i don't know
> how to read it? Need i compile it?

You can, but it's simply in DocBook XML -- it's perfectly human
readable; just ignore the markup. :)

> And a question in detail:
>
> Which way to bootstrap is better and regular?
>
> According to my understanding, to bootstrap in index.php is an old way in
> former versions, bootstrap.php as a bootstraper is included lately, right?
>
> So it means the bootstrap is better choice, right?

Yes -- Zend_Application was introduced in 1.8 to simplify and formalize
the bootstrapping process.

> And what's the relationship of bootstrap.php (or index.php) and Zend_Loader?

The bootstrap is instantiated and executed by Zend_Application. Part of
Zend_Application's constructor is the instantiation of
Zend_Loader_Autoloader, which sets up your project autoloading.

> I am reading your reference guide, i will try to find answer myself.
>
> 2009/9/16 Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]>
>
>     I'm going to top-post here, as there's an extensive thread already, and
>     I want to summarize some of the ideas.
>
>     First, we do make a number of assumptions: (1) you understand PHP, (2)
>     you know how to setup a web server, and (3) you have used and written
>     PHP classes. Are these inappropriate assumptions? I'd like to think not;
>     how can you accurately judge the benefits a framework provides you
>     unless you have a baseline to compare against?
>
>     That said, I've heard a number of complaints about users unable to get
>     the quickstart running -- and almost all of them are due to not
>     understanding how to install and configure a web server. It only makes
>     sense, then, that we spend some time detailing how to configure, at
>     the least, Apache, such that you can get a virtual host up and running
>     and pointed at your project.
>
>     On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a more
>     tutorial oriented section to the manual. The current manual is primarily
>     a reference guide -- it details how to use each component, but not
>     necessarily how to use the components together. The new section, which
>     we are titling, "Learning Zend Framework," will contain a number of
>     tutorials geared at getting users up and running, as well as more
>     intermediate tutorials showing more advanced topics like approaches to
>     models, integrating ACLs into your application, etc.
>
>     You can track our progress via svn:
>
>        http://framework.zend.com/svn/framework/standard/branches/user/
>     zf-devteam/documentation/manual/en
>
>     (We're not doing this on trunk as of yet, as there are some large
>     changes to the manual organization that we need to integrate later.)
>
>     One benefit of this is that tutorials such as the quick start will now
>     be part of the manual -- meaning we can offer translations, but also
>     that you, as developers, can help us make the tutorials better.
>
>     If there are areas where you've been stuck or could have used more
>     information, let us know, and we can begin adding more tutorials.
>
>     -- huajun qi <[hidden email]> wrote
>     (on Wednesday, 16 September 2009, 11:28 AM +0800):
>     >
>     > Hi, i am a freshman to use zend framework.
>     >
>     > I watched your screenshot video, and then i think zf is easy to use, but
>     when i
>     > begin to work, i find it so complex!
>     >
>     > Yes, the example you show in the video is so simple, it include only one
>     class,
>     > as an example, it works fine.
>     >
>     > But i read the read the quick start doc, the way to use zf is totally
>     > different, i do not like to use command line, it is so sick! I want to
>     build a
>     > project like the video shows!
>     >
>     > But the video doesn't mention how to bootstrap, how to include many
>     components,
>     > how to build a real but not an example project at all.
>     >
>     > So, any body know what should i do after i create new project folder, and
>     put
>     > the zend library in it?
>     >
>     > How to initialize the components I need?
>     >
>     > Where to write a configuration file and how to include it?
>     >
>     > Should I create a bootstrap.php file?
>     >
>     > Why do not you make a regular, fluent, detailed document to present how
>     to
>     > build a project without using command line?
>     >
>     > --
>     > Location:
>
>     --
>     Matthew Weier O'Phinney
>     Project Lead            | [hidden email]
>     Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Location:

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
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Re: so complex!

David Mintz
In reply to this post by aoohralex


On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:57 AM, aoohralex <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am sure that Symfony Framework isn't easier. I also sure that in SF
everything has sense and I can easy find help. And I am sure that I still
don't understand this strange method which I must add to Bootstrap:

protected function _initAutoload()
   {
       $moduleLoader = new Zend_Application_Module_Autoloader(array(
                       'namespace' => '',
                       'basePath' => APPLICATION_PATH));
               return $moduleLoader;
   }


Actually he kind of has sort of a point here, in that this is the kind of thing that does make your eyes glaze over, unless you have a deep understanding of ZF. It's like, if it's so auto, why do I need to do it?

--
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
123