so complex!

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so complex!

huajun qi

Hi, i am a freshman to use zend framework.

I watched your screenshot video, and then i think zf is easy to use, but when i begin to work, i find it so complex!

Yes, the example you show in the video is so simple, it include only one class, as an example, it works fine.

But i read the read the quick start doc, the way to use zf is totally different, i do not like to use command line, it is so sick! I want to build a project like the video shows!

But the video doesn't mention how to bootstrap, how to include many components, how to build a real but not an example project at all.

So, any body know what should i do after i create new project folder, and put the zend library in it?

How to initialize the components I need?

Where to write a configuration file and how to include it?

Should I create a bootstrap.php file?

Why do not you make a regular, fluent, detailed document to present how to build a project without using command line?

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Re: so complex!

Angus Mann
I can sympathize with this person....I have also tried using Zend and have given up in frustration.
 
But at the same time....I suspect that using big red capitals and issuing orders like this will not get you very far in a forum where you're relying on people's good will and friendliness. I suspect it will get you dropped into a few kill filters instead.
 
Now that the topic is raised, even though I don't agree with the OP's manner of speaking, I do share the frustration that led him to it.
 
I have found that even when reading / viewing the most basic tutorials, an awful lot of assumptions are made. I never succeeded in actually installing Zend, let alone using it. I could not find a sufficiently simple tutorial that did not already assume that an endless amount of setup was already done.
 
It's a bit like never having seen a car before, and looking for a driving tutorial. You're looking for instructions like "Sit down, put the key in the lock, turn the key for a few seconds then release...." But instead you get "Before energizing the coils of the starter motor, ensure the fuel tank has sufficient propellant for your anticipated journey and that it complies with standard FG667398 of the US environmental control regulatory authority in addition to all local laws and ordinances. If the turbo boost is greater than 9lbs you risk oxidization damage to the cylinder heads so be sure that the ignition is sufficiently retarded to avoid pre-ignition....."
 
Confronted with the instructions above the average person is going to walk away from the car, and be too scared to come back until he thinks he knows something about the manufacture of fuel, and the details of  turbo boost and ignition timing. These are things that the typical driver takes for granted, and rightly so.
 
OK I realize that a programmer needs to do some research. He needs to understand the system he's working with. But you would not expect a driver to know the propane content and flash point of his preferred brand of fuel.
 
So here is an impassioned plea from a hopeful zend user....I feel like the first rung of the ladder is mounted 15 feet above my head. Once I get on the ladder I can climb to the top, now worries. But I can't get to the first rung. Would someone please help me get to the first rung?
 
Thanks,
Angus
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:28 PM
Subject: [fw-mvc] so complex!


Hi, i am a freshman to use zend framework.

I watched your screenshot video, and then i think zf is easy to use, but when i begin to work, i find it so complex!

Yes, the example you show in the video is so simple, it include only one class, as an example, it works fine.

But i read the read the quick start doc, the way to use zf is totally different, i do not like to use command line, it is so sick! I want to build a project like the video shows!

But the video doesn't mention how to bootstrap, how to include many components, how to build a real but not an example project at all.

So, any body know what should i do after i create new project folder, and put the zend library in it?

How to initialize the components I need?

Where to write a configuration file and how to include it?

Should I create a bootstrap.php file?

Why do not you make a regular, fluent, detailed document to present how to build a project without using command line?

--
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Re: so complex!

mlurz71
With all due respect, I submit that:

1) If you're uncomfortable with the command line, then you you should
either a) become more familiar (which will ease your discomfort) or b)
find a different profession. Having said that, it's not necessary to use
Zend_Tool to create or work with a ZF project. You don't have to use
the cli at all if you don't want to, but you'll be worse off for it in
the end.

2) The analogy given is invalid. A more correct analogy imo would be:

Driver = End User

Mechanic = Programmer

I'm not sure where framework and language developers fit in here, but
hopefully this will suffice. Of course the end user doesn't want to know
about the inner working of his chariot, but the mechanic better.

I do sympathize, but the ZF isn't a silver bullet. It can make you a
happier, more productive programmer (at least this has been my
experience), but there is a price to pay in learning to leverage the power
that the framework offers. Always remember that there is no such thing as
a free lunch. I am of the opinion that you are better off learning a
framework than you would be otherwise. There are many blog posts as to the
pros/cons of this popular view and the contrary views.

The best advice I can give, assuming you're already a competent
programmer, is to start by devouring any recently published book on the
topic. The one I used is effectively outdated by now and so I can't
recommend it, but I'm sure google or amazon will turn up plenty. Then,
once you gain a basic understanding of what the ZF is and how it can help
you, reply back with a more specific question(s).

Hope that helps.

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Angus Mann wrote:

> I can sympathize with this person....I have also tried using Zend and
> have given up in frustration.
>
> But at the same time....I suspect that using big red capitals and
> issuing orders like this will not get you very far in a forum where
> you're relying on people's good will and friendliness. I suspect it will
> get you dropped into a few kill filters instead.
>
> Now that the topic is raised, even though I don't agree with the OP's
> manner of speaking, I do share the frustration that led him to it.
>
> I have found that even when reading / viewing the most basic tutorials,
> an awful lot of assumptions are made. I never succeeded in actually
> installing Zend, let alone using it. I could not find a sufficiently
> simple tutorial that did not already assume that an endless amount of
> setup was already done.
>
> It's a bit like never having seen a car before, and looking for a
> driving tutorial. You're looking for instructions like "Sit down, put
> the key in the lock, turn the key for a few seconds then release...."
> But instead you get "Before energizing the coils of the starter motor,
> ensure the fuel tank has sufficient propellant for your anticipated
> journey and that it complies with standard FG667398 of the US
> environmental control regulatory authority in addition to all local laws
> and ordinances. If the turbo boost is greater than 9lbs you risk
> oxidization damage to the cylinder heads so be sure that the ignition is
> sufficiently retarded to avoid pre-ignition....."
>
> Confronted with the instructions above the average person is going to
> walk away from the car, and be too scared to come back until he thinks
> he knows something about the manufacture of fuel, and the details of
> turbo boost and ignition timing. These are things that the typical
> driver takes for granted, and rightly so.
>
> OK I realize that a programmer needs to do some research. He needs to
> understand the system he's working with. But you would not expect a
> driver to know the propane content and flash point of his preferred
> brand of fuel.
>
> So here is an impassioned plea from a hopeful zend user....I feel like
> the first rung of the ladder is mounted 15 feet above my head. Once I
> get on the ladder I can climb to the top, now worries. But I can't get
> to the first rung. Would someone please help me get to the first rung?
>
> Thanks, Angus
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: huajun qi
>  To: [hidden email]
>  Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:28 PM
>  Subject: [fw-mvc] so complex!
>
>
>
>  Hi, i am a freshman to use zend framework.
>
>
>  I watched your screenshot video, and then i think zf is easy to use,
> but when i begin to work, i find it so complex!
>
>
>  Yes, the example you show in the video is so simple, it include only
> one class, as an example, it works fine.
>
>
>  But i read the read the quick start doc, the way to use zf is totally
> different, i do not like to use command line, it is so sick! I want to
> build a project like the video shows!
>
>
>  But the video doesn't mention how to bootstrap, how to include many
> components, how to build a real but not an example project at all.
>
>
>  So, any body know what should i do after i create new project folder,
> and put the zend library in it?
>
>
>  How to initialize the components I need?
>
>
>  Where to write a configuration file and how to include it?
>
>
>  Should I create a bootstrap.php file?
>
>
>  Why do not you make a regular, fluent, detailed document to present how
> to build a project without using command line?
>
>
>  --
>  Location:
>
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RE: so complex!

Mert Oztekin
In reply to this post by Angus Mann

I agree some of your thoughts. Zend Framework is not really that simple to learn in a short time, but you also have to know that, other frameworks ALSO are not simple(I found them more complex).

 

You give an example of using a car. Of course “turning the key” is the simple answer to all, but what are you gonna do if “turning” doesnt starts your engine as you expect. You have to know what “turning” does. As all of us are proggrammers, we know that the possibility of getting an error in our code is much much more bigger than having a problem in our car. So we have to know what we are doing. Most of the time making an application “that does work” only saves the day.

 

I suggest you to read as much as code as you can. Try try try. I am trying to code a project that is not finished yet,in Zf for 2 months  that I know I can code it in pure php in 2 weeks. Reading tutorials or reference quide is not enough. Reference quide is good but it is just “Reference Quide”.

 

 

Just keep trying and reading dude. Some of the benefits of ZF worths trying.

 

From: Angus Mann [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:20 AM
To: huajun qi; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!

 

I can sympathize with this person....I have also tried using Zend and have given up in frustration.

 

But at the same time....I suspect that using big red capitals and issuing orders like this will not get you very far in a forum where you're relying on people's good will and friendliness. I suspect it will get you dropped into a few kill filters instead.

 

Now that the topic is raised, even though I don't agree with the OP's manner of speaking, I do share the frustration that led him to it.

 

I have found that even when reading / viewing the most basic tutorials, an awful lot of assumptions are made. I never succeeded in actually installing Zend, let alone using it. I could not find a sufficiently simple tutorial that did not already assume that an endless amount of setup was already done.

 

It's a bit like never having seen a car before, and looking for a driving tutorial. You're looking for instructions like "Sit down, put the key in the lock, turn the key for a few seconds then release...." But instead you get "Before energizing the coils of the starter motor, ensure the fuel tank has sufficient propellant for your anticipated journey and that it complies with standard FG667398 of the US environmental control regulatory authority in addition to all local laws and ordinances. If the turbo boost is greater than 9lbs you risk oxidization damage to the cylinder heads so be sure that the ignition is sufficiently retarded to avoid pre-ignition....."

 

Confronted with the instructions above the average person is going to walk away from the car, and be too scared to come back until he thinks he knows something about the manufacture of fuel, and the details of  turbo boost and ignition timing. These are things that the typical driver takes for granted, and rightly so.

 

OK I realize that a programmer needs to do some research. He needs to understand the system he's working with. But you would not expect a driver to know the propane content and flash point of his preferred brand of fuel.

 

So here is an impassioned plea from a hopeful zend user....I feel like the first rung of the ladder is mounted 15 feet above my head. Once I get on the ladder I can climb to the top, now worries. But I can't get to the first rung. Would someone please help me get to the first rung?

 

Thanks,

Angus

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:28 PM

Subject: [fw-mvc] so complex!

 


Hi, i am a freshman to use zend framework.

 

I watched your screenshot video, and then i think zf is easy to use, but when i begin to work, i find it so complex!

 

Yes, the example you show in the video is so simple, it include only one class, as an example, it works fine.

 

But i read the read the quick start doc, the way to use zf is totally different, i do not like to use command line, it is so sick! I want to build a project like the video shows!

 

But the video doesn't mention how to bootstrap, how to include many components, how to build a real but not an example project at all.

 

So, any body know what should i do after i create new project folder, and put the zend library in it?

 

How to initialize the components I need?

 

Where to write a configuration file and how to include it?

 

Should I create a bootstrap.php file?

 

Why do not you make a regular, fluent, detailed document to present how to build a project without using command line?

 

--
Location:



Bu mesaj ve ekleri, mesajda gönderildiği belirtilen kişi/kişilere özeldir ve gizlidir. Size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa lütfen gönderen kisiyi bilgilendiriniz ve mesajı sisteminizden siliniz. Mesaj ve eklerinin içeriği ile ilgili olarak şirketimizin herhangi bir hukuki sorumluluğu bulunmamaktadır. Şirketimiz mesajın ve bilgilerinin size değişikliğe uğrayarak veya geç ulaşmasından, bütünlüğünün ve gizliliğinin korunamamasından, virüs içermesinden ve bilgisayar sisteminize verebileceği herhangi bir zarardan sorumlu tutulamaz.

This message and attachments are confidential and intended for the individual(s) stated in this message. If you received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete it from your system. Our company has no legal responsibility for the contents of the message and its attachments. Our company shall have no liability for any changes or late receiving, loss of integrity and confidentiality, viruses and any damages caused in anyway to your computer system.
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Re: so complex!

Andy L.
IMHO, people feel difficult to learn ZF because they don't understand the benefit. For example, Zend_Form. People may feel it is designed very complex (element, decorator, validator, etc). They don't understand the benefit it brings. It is designed to be customizable & extensible. Nice design pattern for flexibility.

Zend_Form utilize basic flow of handling form in a website (validating, populating value, rendering, etc).

Best regards,


Andy.

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Mert Oztekin <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree some of your thoughts. Zend Framework is not really that simple to learn in a short time, but you also have to know that, other frameworks ALSO are not simple(I found them more complex).

 

You give an example of using a car. Of course “turning the key” is the simple answer to all, but what are you gonna do if “turning” doesnt starts your engine as you expect. You have to know what “turning” does. As all of us are proggrammers, we know that the possibility of getting an error in our code is much much more bigger than having a problem in our car. So we have to know what we are doing. Most of the time making an application “that does work” only saves the day.

 

I suggest you to read as much as code as you can. Try try try. I am trying to code a project that is not finished yet,in Zf for 2 months  that I know I can code it in pure php in 2 weeks. Reading tutorials or reference quide is not enough. Reference quide is good but it is just “Reference Quide”.

 

 

Just keep trying and reading dude. Some of the benefits of ZF worths trying.

 

From: Angus Mann [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:20 AM
To: huajun qi; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!

 

I can sympathize with this person....I have also tried using Zend and have given up in frustration.

 

But at the same time....I suspect that using big red capitals and issuing orders like this will not get you very far in a forum where you're relying on people's good will and friendliness. I suspect it will get you dropped into a few kill filters instead.

 

Now that the topic is raised, even though I don't agree with the OP's manner of speaking, I do share the frustration that led him to it.

 

I have found that even when reading / viewing the most basic tutorials, an awful lot of assumptions are made. I never succeeded in actually installing Zend, let alone using it. I could not find a sufficiently simple tutorial that did not already assume that an endless amount of setup was already done.

 

It's a bit like never having seen a car before, and looking for a driving tutorial. You're looking for instructions like "Sit down, put the key in the lock, turn the key for a few seconds then release...." But instead you get "Before energizing the coils of the starter motor, ensure the fuel tank has sufficient propellant for your anticipated journey and that it complies with standard FG667398 of the US environmental control regulatory authority in addition to all local laws and ordinances. If the turbo boost is greater than 9lbs you risk oxidization damage to the cylinder heads so be sure that the ignition is sufficiently retarded to avoid pre-ignition....."

 

Confronted with the instructions above the average person is going to walk away from the car, and be too scared to come back until he thinks he knows something about the manufacture of fuel, and the details of  turbo boost and ignition timing. These are things that the typical driver takes for granted, and rightly so.

 

OK I realize that a programmer needs to do some research. He needs to understand the system he's working with. But you would not expect a driver to know the propane content and flash point of his preferred brand of fuel.

 

So here is an impassioned plea from a hopeful zend user....I feel like the first rung of the ladder is mounted 15 feet above my head. Once I get on the ladder I can climb to the top, now worries. But I can't get to the first rung. Would someone please help me get to the first rung?

 

Thanks,

Angus

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:28 PM

Subject: [fw-mvc] so complex!

 


Hi, i am a freshman to use zend framework.

 

I watched your screenshot video, and then i think zf is easy to use, but when i begin to work, i find it so complex!

 

Yes, the example you show in the video is so simple, it include only one class, as an example, it works fine.

 

But i read the read the quick start doc, the way to use zf is totally different, i do not like to use command line, it is so sick! I want to build a project like the video shows!

 

But the video doesn't mention how to bootstrap, how to include many components, how to build a real but not an example project at all.

 

So, any body know what should i do after i create new project folder, and put the zend library in it?

 

How to initialize the components I need?

 

Where to write a configuration file and how to include it?

 

Should I create a bootstrap.php file?

 

Why do not you make a regular, fluent, detailed document to present how to build a project without using command line?

 

--
Location:



Bu mesaj ve ekleri, mesajda gönderildiği belirtilen kişi/kişilere özeldir ve gizlidir. Size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa lütfen gönderen kisiyi bilgilendiriniz ve mesajı sisteminizden siliniz. Mesaj ve eklerinin içeriği ile ilgili olarak şirketimizin herhangi bir hukuki sorumluluğu bulunmamaktadır. Şirketimiz mesajın ve bilgilerinin size değişikliğe uğrayarak veya geç ulaşmasından, bütünlüğünün ve gizliliğinin korunamamasından, virüs içermesinden ve bilgisayar sisteminize verebileceği herhangi bir zarardan sorumlu tutulamaz.

This message and attachments are confidential and intended for the individual(s) stated in this message. If you received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete it from your system. Our company has no legal responsibility for the contents of the message and its attachments. Our company shall have no liability for any changes or late receiving, loss of integrity and confidentiality, viruses and any damages caused in anyway to your computer system.

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Re: so complex!

Jon Lebensold
As someone who produces learning content about the Zend Framework, I can sympathize with your please for ease of use and simplicity. My first attempt at learning the framework (while it was still in release candidate) involved a whole weekend of plugging away at the quickstart guide (which was spotty and erroneous at the time). While the resources have gotten a lot better, the framework makes a lot of preliminary assumptions about programming that a PHP programmer might not be used to. For starters, the framework is designed around OOP and proven design patterns (essentially blueprints for writing classes so that they can perform complex tasks in a consistent manner). If MVC is something that you aren't familiar with, then the whole web architecture of Zend_View and Zend_Controller is going to seem strange.

I think, like anything, it helps to have a project or goal in mind that will keep you motivated to dig deeper and deeper into the libraries that make up Zend. Just remember that when you're using a framework like this, that you're standing on the shoulders of many experienced developers, architects and testers. Also remember that if you're having difficulties, that you're probably not alone and that there are many places to go for help (starting with the Zend QuickStart guide, the Zend documentation and some solid blogs).

On my own site, I have a couple of getting started videos that you might find helpful. I also include all the project files on a google code repository for your downloading pleasure.

Bon Courage!
-
Jon Lebensold
zendcasts.com

2009/9/16 Andy L. <[hidden email]>
IMHO, people feel difficult to learn ZF because they don't understand the benefit. For example, Zend_Form. People may feel it is designed very complex (element, decorator, validator, etc). They don't understand the benefit it brings. It is designed to be customizable & extensible. Nice design pattern for flexibility.

Zend_Form utilize basic flow of handling form in a website (validating, populating value, rendering, etc).

Best regards,


Andy.


On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Mert Oztekin <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree some of your thoughts. Zend Framework is not really that simple to learn in a short time, but you also have to know that, other frameworks ALSO are not simple(I found them more complex).

 

You give an example of using a car. Of course “turning the key” is the simple answer to all, but what are you gonna do if “turning” doesnt starts your engine as you expect. You have to know what “turning” does. As all of us are proggrammers, we know that the possibility of getting an error in our code is much much more bigger than having a problem in our car. So we have to know what we are doing. Most of the time making an application “that does work” only saves the day.

 

I suggest you to read as much as code as you can. Try try try. I am trying to code a project that is not finished yet,in Zf for 2 months  that I know I can code it in pure php in 2 weeks. Reading tutorials or reference quide is not enough. Reference quide is good but it is just “Reference Quide”.

 

 

Just keep trying and reading dude. Some of the benefits of ZF worths trying.

 

From: Angus Mann [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:20 AM
To: huajun qi; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!

 

I can sympathize with this person....I have also tried using Zend and have given up in frustration.

 

But at the same time....I suspect that using big red capitals and issuing orders like this will not get you very far in a forum where you're relying on people's good will and friendliness. I suspect it will get you dropped into a few kill filters instead.

 

Now that the topic is raised, even though I don't agree with the OP's manner of speaking, I do share the frustration that led him to it.

 

I have found that even when reading / viewing the most basic tutorials, an awful lot of assumptions are made. I never succeeded in actually installing Zend, let alone using it. I could not find a sufficiently simple tutorial that did not already assume that an endless amount of setup was already done.

 

It's a bit like never having seen a car before, and looking for a driving tutorial. You're looking for instructions like "Sit down, put the key in the lock, turn the key for a few seconds then release...." But instead you get "Before energizing the coils of the starter motor, ensure the fuel tank has sufficient propellant for your anticipated journey and that it complies with standard FG667398 of the US environmental control regulatory authority in addition to all local laws and ordinances. If the turbo boost is greater than 9lbs you risk oxidization damage to the cylinder heads so be sure that the ignition is sufficiently retarded to avoid pre-ignition....."

 

Confronted with the instructions above the average person is going to walk away from the car, and be too scared to come back until he thinks he knows something about the manufacture of fuel, and the details of  turbo boost and ignition timing. These are things that the typical driver takes for granted, and rightly so.

 

OK I realize that a programmer needs to do some research. He needs to understand the system he's working with. But you would not expect a driver to know the propane content and flash point of his preferred brand of fuel.

 

So here is an impassioned plea from a hopeful zend user....I feel like the first rung of the ladder is mounted 15 feet above my head. Once I get on the ladder I can climb to the top, now worries. But I can't get to the first rung. Would someone please help me get to the first rung?

 

Thanks,

Angus

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:28 PM

Subject: [fw-mvc] so complex!

 


Hi, i am a freshman to use zend framework.

 

I watched your screenshot video, and then i think zf is easy to use, but when i begin to work, i find it so complex!

 

Yes, the example you show in the video is so simple, it include only one class, as an example, it works fine.

 

But i read the read the quick start doc, the way to use zf is totally different, i do not like to use command line, it is so sick! I want to build a project like the video shows!

 

But the video doesn't mention how to bootstrap, how to include many components, how to build a real but not an example project at all.

 

So, any body know what should i do after i create new project folder, and put the zend library in it?

 

How to initialize the components I need?

 

Where to write a configuration file and how to include it?

 

Should I create a bootstrap.php file?

 

Why do not you make a regular, fluent, detailed document to present how to build a project without using command line?

 

--
Location:



Bu mesaj ve ekleri, mesajda gönderildiği belirtilen kişi/kişilere özeldir ve gizlidir. Size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa lütfen gönderen kisiyi bilgilendiriniz ve mesajı sisteminizden siliniz. Mesaj ve eklerinin içeriği ile ilgili olarak şirketimizin herhangi bir hukuki sorumluluğu bulunmamaktadır. Şirketimiz mesajın ve bilgilerinin size değişikliğe uğrayarak veya geç ulaşmasından, bütünlüğünün ve gizliliğinin korunamamasından, virüs içermesinden ve bilgisayar sisteminize verebileceği herhangi bir zarardan sorumlu tutulamaz.

This message and attachments are confidential and intended for the individual(s) stated in this message. If you received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete it from your system. Our company has no legal responsibility for the contents of the message and its attachments. Our company shall have no liability for any changes or late receiving, loss of integrity and confidentiality, viruses and any damages caused in anyway to your computer system.


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Re: so complex!

Franck Delage-2
Hello everyone,

I'm new on this list, and also new in ZF. It's one month ago that I
began with it.

Two things have really helped me in understanding this great framework,
along with the good documentation yhat goes with it:

A very small but very good french tutorial with a picture that summarize
the engine of ZF :

http://www.kitpages.fr/zf_helper_plugin.php

And, must of the must, Jon Lenbensold wonderful videos ! Which makes me,
by the way, very proud to be next to him on that list :)

They are really very helpful and made to be understandable by a small
developper totally autodidact like me.

Hope this helps, and excuse my english (I'm french).

Best regards,

Franck.

--
Franck Delage
Création et hébergements de sites web
www.web82.net

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RE: so complex!

Mert Oztekin
Picture of engine is absolutely great.
I think it should be added to zf reference quide

-----Original Message-----
From: Franck Delage [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 10:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!

Hello everyone,

I'm new on this list, and also new in ZF. It's one month ago that I began with it.

Two things have really helped me in understanding this great framework, along with the good documentation yhat goes with it:

A very small but very good french tutorial with a picture that summarize the engine of ZF :

http://www.kitpages.fr/zf_helper_plugin.php

And, must of the must, Jon Lenbensold wonderful videos ! Which makes me, by the way, very proud to be next to him on that list :)

They are really very helpful and made to be understandable by a small developper totally autodidact like me.

Hope this helps, and excuse my english (I'm french).

Best regards,

Franck.

--
Franck Delage
Création et hébergements de sites web
www.web82.net

Bu mesaj ve ekleri, mesajda gönderildiği belirtilen kişi/kişilere özeldir ve gizlidir. Size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa lütfen gönderen kisiyi bilgilendiriniz ve mesajı sisteminizden siliniz. Mesaj ve eklerinin içeriği ile ilgili olarak şirketimizin herhangi bir hukuki sorumluluğu bulunmamaktadır. Şirketimiz mesajın ve bilgilerinin size değişikliğe uğrayarak veya geç ulaşmasından, bütünlüğünün ve gizliliğinin korunamamasından, virüs içermesinden ve bilgisayar sisteminize verebileceği herhangi bir zarardan sorumlu tutulamaz.

This message and attachments are confidential and intended for the individual(s) stated in this message. If you received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete it from your system. Our company has no legal responsibility for the contents of the message and its attachments. Our company shall have no liability for any changes or late receiving, loss of integrity and confidentiality, viruses and any damages caused in anyway to your computer system.
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Re: so complex!

Andy L.
Thanks for your reference. I also think that it will be great to add sequence diagram in ZF documentation.

2009/9/16 Mert Oztekin <[hidden email]>
Picture of engine is absolutely great.
I think it should be added to zf reference quide

-----Original Message-----
From: Franck Delage [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 10:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!

Hello everyone,

I'm new on this list, and also new in ZF. It's one month ago that I began with it.

Two things have really helped me in understanding this great framework, along with the good documentation yhat goes with it:

A very small but very good french tutorial with a picture that summarize the engine of ZF :

http://www.kitpages.fr/zf_helper_plugin.php

And, must of the must, Jon Lenbensold wonderful videos ! Which makes me, by the way, very proud to be next to him on that list :)

They are really very helpful and made to be understandable by a small developper totally autodidact like me.

Hope this helps, and excuse my english (I'm french).

Best regards,

Franck.

--
Franck Delage
Création et hébergements de sites web
www.web82.net

Bu mesaj ve ekleri, mesajda gönderildiği belirtilen kişi/kişilere özeldir ve gizlidir. Size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa lütfen gönderen kisiyi bilgilendiriniz ve mesajı sisteminizden siliniz. Mesaj ve eklerinin içeriği ile ilgili olarak şirketimizin herhangi bir hukuki sorumluluğu bulunmamaktadır. Şirketimiz mesajın ve bilgilerinin size değişikliğe uğrayarak veya geç ulaşmasından, bütünlüğünün ve gizliliğinin korunamamasından, virüs içermesinden ve bilgisayar sisteminize verebileceği herhangi bir zarardan sorumlu tutulamaz.

This message and attachments are confidential and intended for the individual(s) stated in this message. If you received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete it from your system. Our company has no legal responsibility for the contents of the message and its attachments. Our company shall have no liability for any changes or late receiving, loss of integrity and confidentiality, viruses and any damages caused in anyway to your computer system.


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Re: so complex!

J DeBord
In reply to this post by Franck Delage-2
It can be tough at first, but with time it gets a lot easier. Just keep with it, ask questions here, use zendcasts.com, and don't give up. You won't "get it" overnight, but if you start simple and use it everyday for a couple weeks, you'll be fine. You'll probably get frustrated, especially if you are new to MVC or frameworks, but don't give up!

Jon Lebensold,

Your site has great content, no doubt about that. I would suggest tagging all the videos that could be considered "basic" or interesting for beginners, then linking to them from the front page. Today the front page of Zendcasts hit you with using cache to speed up webservices. While this is great, if someone new to ZF sees that first they might either not look for the basic stuff you have or think that the site might not have anythign to offer them.


J

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Franck Delage <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm new on this list, and also new in ZF. It's one month ago that I
began with it.

Two things have really helped me in understanding this great framework,
along with the good documentation yhat goes with it:

A very small but very good french tutorial with a picture that summarize
the engine of ZF :

http://www.kitpages.fr/zf_helper_plugin.php

And, must of the must, Jon Lenbensold wonderful videos ! Which makes me,
by the way, very proud to be next to him on that list :)

They are really very helpful and made to be understandable by a small
developper totally autodidact like me.

Hope this helps, and excuse my english (I'm french).

Best regards,

Franck.

--
Franck Delage
Création et hébergements de sites web
www.web82.net

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Re: so complex!

Jon Lebensold
Hi J,

Thanks for the feedback,

the site is going to be undertaking an overhaul in the next few months. As a side project, this site has grown in its breadth since its humble beginnings and I know that the typical wordpress format just doesn't cut it anymore.

in terms of beginner content, I would suggest looking at the 1.8 bootstrapping video:
http://www.zendcasts.com/introduction-to-zend-18-a-look-at-zend_tool-and-bootstrapping/2009/05/
or the video covering the MVC folder structure (this is from december 2008):
http://www.zendcasts.com/zend-framework-mvc-folders/2008/12/

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 3:36 AM, J DeBord <[hidden email]> wrote:
It can be tough at first, but with time it gets a lot easier. Just keep with it, ask questions here, use zendcasts.com, and don't give up. You won't "get it" overnight, but if you start simple and use it everyday for a couple weeks, you'll be fine. You'll probably get frustrated, especially if you are new to MVC or frameworks, but don't give up!

Jon Lebensold,

Your site has great content, no doubt about that. I would suggest tagging all the videos that could be considered "basic" or interesting for beginners, then linking to them from the front page. Today the front page of Zendcasts hit you with using cache to speed up webservices. While this is great, if someone new to ZF sees that first they might either not look for the basic stuff you have or think that the site might not have anythign to offer them.


J

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Franck Delage <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm new on this list, and also new in ZF. It's one month ago that I
began with it.

Two things have really helped me in understanding this great framework,
along with the good documentation yhat goes with it:

A very small but very good french tutorial with a picture that summarize
the engine of ZF :

http://www.kitpages.fr/zf_helper_plugin.php

And, must of the must, Jon Lenbensold wonderful videos ! Which makes me,
by the way, very proud to be next to him on that list :)

They are really very helpful and made to be understandable by a small
developper totally autodidact like me.

Hope this helps, and excuse my english (I'm french).

Best regards,

Franck.

--
Franck Delage
Création et hébergements de sites web
www.web82.net

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Re: so complex!

padraicb
Another free resource is my own book, Zend Framework: Surviving The Deep End, which is available in HTML format online: http://www.survivethedeepend.com. I think the title says it all ;).

Getting started may take a bit of time, but the resources are out there if you look for them.

Pádraic Brady

http://blog.astrumfutura.com
http://www.survivethedeepend.com
OpenID Europe Foundation Irish Representative



From: Jon Lebensold <[hidden email]>
To: J DeBord <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:43:23 AM
Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!

Hi J,

Thanks for the feedback,

the site is going to be undertaking an overhaul in the next few months. As a side project, this site has grown in its breadth since its humble beginnings and I know that the typical wordpress format just doesn't cut it anymore.

in terms of beginner content, I would suggest looking at the 1.8 bootstrapping video:
http://www.zendcasts.com/introduction-to-zend-18-a-look-at-zend_tool-and-bootstrapping/2009/05/
or the video covering the MVC folder structure (this is from december 2008):
http://www.zendcasts.com/zend-framework-mvc-folders/2008/12/

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 3:36 AM, J DeBord <[hidden email]> wrote:
It can be tough at first, but with time it gets a lot easier. Just keep with it, ask questions here, use zendcasts.com, and don't give up. You won't "get it" overnight, but if you start simple and use it everyday for a couple weeks, you'll be fine. You'll probably get frustrated, especially if you are new to MVC or frameworks, but don't give up!

Jon Lebensold,

Your site has great content, no doubt about that. I would suggest tagging all the videos that could be considered "basic" or interesting for beginners, then linking to them from the front page. Today the front page of Zendcasts hit you with using cache to speed up webservices. While this is great, if someone new to ZF sees that first they might either not look for the basic stuff you have or think that the site might not have anythign to offer them.


J

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Franck Delage <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm new on this list, and also new in ZF. It's one month ago that I
began with it.

Two things have really helped me in understanding this great framework,
along with the good documentation yhat goes with it:

A very small but very good french tutorial with a picture that summarize
the engine of ZF :

http://www.kitpages.fr/zf_helper_plugin.php

And, must of the must, Jon Lenbensold wonderful videos ! Which makes me,
by the way, very proud to be next to him on that list :)

They are really very helpful and made to be understandable by a small
developper totally autodidact like me.

Hope this helps, and excuse my english (I'm french).

Best regards,

Franck.

--
Franck Delage
Création et hébergements de sites web
www.web82.net

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RE: so complex!

Mert Oztekin

Awesome. i will donate as soon as i got my october wage

 

From: Pádraic Brady [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:18 PM
To: Jon Lebensold
Cc: Zend Framework MVC
Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!

 

Another free resource is my own book, Zend Framework: Surviving The Deep End, which is available in HTML format online: http://www.survivethedeepend.com. I think the title says it all ;).

Getting started may take a bit of time, but the resources are out there if you look for them.

Pádraic Brady

http://blog.astrumfutura.com
http://www.survivethedeepend.com
OpenID Europe Foundation Irish Representative

 

 


From: Jon Lebensold <[hidden email]>
To: J DeBord <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:43:23 AM
Subject: Re: [fw-mvc] so complex!

Hi J,

Thanks for the feedback,

the site is going to be undertaking an overhaul in the next few months. As a side project, this site has grown in its breadth since its humble beginnings and I know that the typical wordpress format just doesn't cut it anymore.

in terms of beginner content, I would suggest looking at the 1.8 bootstrapping video:
http://www.zendcasts.com/introduction-to-zend-18-a-look-at-zend_tool-and-bootstrapping/2009/05/
or the video covering the MVC folder structure (this is from december 2008):
http://www.zendcasts.com/zend-framework-mvc-folders/2008/12/

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 3:36 AM, J DeBord <[hidden email]> wrote:

It can be tough at first, but with time it gets a lot easier. Just keep with it, ask questions here, use zendcasts.com, and don't give up. You won't "get it" overnight, but if you start simple and use it everyday for a couple weeks, you'll be fine. You'll probably get frustrated, especially if you are new to MVC or frameworks, but don't give up!

Jon Lebensold,

Your site has great content, no doubt about that. I would suggest tagging all the videos that could be considered "basic" or interesting for beginners, then linking to them from the front page. Today the front page of Zendcasts hit you with using cache to speed up webservices. While this is great, if someone new to ZF sees that first they might either not look for the basic stuff you have or think that the site might not have anythign to offer them.


J

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Franck Delage <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello everyone,

I'm new on this list, and also new in ZF. It's one month ago that I
began with it.

Two things have really helped me in understanding this great framework,
along with the good documentation yhat goes with it:

A very small but very good french tutorial with a picture that summarize
the engine of ZF :

http://www.kitpages.fr/zf_helper_plugin.php

And, must of the must, Jon Lenbensold wonderful videos ! Which makes me,
by the way, very proud to be next to him on that list :)

They are really very helpful and made to be understandable by a small
developper totally autodidact like me.

Hope this helps, and excuse my english (I'm french).

Best regards,

Franck.

--
Franck Delage
Création et hébergements de sites web
www.web82.net

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Bu mesaj ve ekleri, mesajda gönderildiği belirtilen kişi/kişilere özeldir ve gizlidir. Size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa lütfen gönderen kisiyi bilgilendiriniz ve mesajı sisteminizden siliniz. Mesaj ve eklerinin içeriği ile ilgili olarak şirketimizin herhangi bir hukuki sorumluluğu bulunmamaktadır. Şirketimiz mesajın ve bilgilerinin size değişikliğe uğrayarak veya geç ulaşmasından, bütünlüğünün ve gizliliğinin korunamamasından, virüs içermesinden ve bilgisayar sisteminize verebileceği herhangi bir zarardan sorumlu tutulamaz.

This message and attachments are confidential and intended for the individual(s) stated in this message. If you received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete it from your system. Our company has no legal responsibility for the contents of the message and its attachments. Our company shall have no liability for any changes or late receiving, loss of integrity and confidentiality, viruses and any damages caused in anyway to your computer system.
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Re: so complex!

weierophinney
Administrator
In reply to this post by huajun qi
I'm going to top-post here, as there's an extensive thread already, and
I want to summarize some of the ideas.

First, we do make a number of assumptions: (1) you understand PHP, (2)
you know how to setup a web server, and (3) you have used and written
PHP classes. Are these inappropriate assumptions? I'd like to think not;
how can you accurately judge the benefits a framework provides you
unless you have a baseline to compare against?

That said, I've heard a number of complaints about users unable to get
the quickstart running -- and almost all of them are due to not
understanding how to install and configure a web server. It only makes
sense, then, that we spend some time detailing how to configure, at
the least, Apache, such that you can get a virtual host up and running
and pointed at your project.

On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a more
tutorial oriented section to the manual. The current manual is primarily
a reference guide -- it details how to use each component, but not
necessarily how to use the components together. The new section, which
we are titling, "Learning Zend Framework," will contain a number of
tutorials geared at getting users up and running, as well as more
intermediate tutorials showing more advanced topics like approaches to
models, integrating ACLs into your application, etc.

You can track our progress via svn:

    http://framework.zend.com/svn/framework/standard/branches/user/zf-devteam/documentation/manual/en

(We're not doing this on trunk as of yet, as there are some large
changes to the manual organization that we need to integrate later.)

One benefit of this is that tutorials such as the quick start will now
be part of the manual -- meaning we can offer translations, but also
that you, as developers, can help us make the tutorials better.

If there are areas where you've been stuck or could have used more
information, let us know, and we can begin adding more tutorials.

-- huajun qi <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Wednesday, 16 September 2009, 11:28 AM +0800):

>
> Hi, i am a freshman to use zend framework.
>
> I watched your screenshot video, and then i think zf is easy to use, but when i
> begin to work, i find it so complex!
>
> Yes, the example you show in the video is so simple, it include only one class,
> as an example, it works fine.
>
> But i read the read the quick start doc, the way to use zf is totally
> different, i do not like to use command line, it is so sick! I want to build a
> project like the video shows!
>
> But the video doesn't mention how to bootstrap, how to include many components,
> how to build a real but not an example project at all.
>
> So, any body know what should i do after i create new project folder, and put
> the zend library in it?
>
> How to initialize the components I need?
>
> Where to write a configuration file and how to include it?
>
> Should I create a bootstrap.php file?
>
> Why do not you make a regular, fluent, detailed document to present how to
> build a project without using command line?
>
> --
> Location:

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
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RE: so complex!

neobeacon
In reply to this post by Mert Oztekin
I am a very beginner to zend framework.I also accept that the beginning is always difficult.I think that the framework must be handle auto loading views, helpers, models by default with a conventional modular structure. Anyway this is a brilliant framework.

I also stuck in the beginning(even now),in those days I found a brilliant tutorial by Jeroen Keppens to create a modular application with Zend Framework.I think that this information will be helpful for anyone who want to create a modular application.

The mailing lists and forums are very good places for getting a solution for problems.But I think that the addressing must be friendly.
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Re: so complex!

Franck Delage-2
In reply to this post by weierophinney
Just to answer to Matthew :

Matthew Weier O'Phinney a écrit :
| First, we do make a number of assumptions: (1) you understand PHP, (2)
| you know how to setup a web server, and (3) you have used and written
| PHP classes. Are these inappropriate assumptions? I'd like to think not;
| how can you accurately judge the benefits a framework provides you
| unless you have a baseline to compare against?

Of course these are not inappropriate assumptions.

A framework is not one of those "softwares" which theorically allows you
to build a wonderful website in 10 clicks. It's a tool, and a tool needs
a worker.

You can buy the latest beautiful Facom screwdriver, if you don't know
in which direction you unscrew...

M, thank you for your work.

--
Franck Delage
Création et hébergements de sites web
www.web82.net

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Re: so complex!

Andreas Kraftl
In reply to this post by weierophinney
Am Mittwoch, den 16.09.2009, 08:26 -0400 schrieb Matthew Weier
O'Phinney:

> On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a more
> tutorial oriented section to the manual.

I love this idea. But another idea is, to extend the manual with two
small things.

Every class where it make sense, should describe how to interact with
Zend_Application and how to initialize it in the bootstrap. Second is,
to describe some unittests.

Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

Or more better, Zend_Tool can do this.

The main problem this time is, that Zend_Application is a very good and
in the meantime a central point of the Framework. But the documentation
covers all before Zend Framework 1.8.

If i am right, I think the manual should be written more in the
direction Zend_Application.


Last point: whenever you say a programmer should know how to create
things ...
A programmer knows better, how to delete things than a not programmer
knows how to add things.

I am not sure, if Zend Framework would be a framework for week
programmers or beginners. But if so, then change direction of thought
how to write the manual.

Thanks and greetings
Andreas
--
Kraftl EDV - Dienstleistungen
Linux, Linuxschulungen, Webprogrammierung
Autofabrikstraße 16/6
1230 Wien

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Re: so complex!

David Mintz
In reply to this post by Franck Delage-2


On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Franck Delage <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just to answer to Matthew :

Matthew Weier O'Phinney a écrit :
| First, we do make a number of assumptions: (1) you understand PHP, (2)
| you know how to setup a web server, and (3) you have used and written
| PHP classes. Are these inappropriate assumptions? I'd like to think not;
| how can you accurately judge the benefits a framework provides you
| unless you have a baseline to compare against?

Of course these are not inappropriate assumptions.
<snip/>


Wonderful discussion.

I like to imagine my own opinion is especially fair and balanced (so to spealk :-)) because I walk up to ZF as a non-full-time-professional coder, and as such, with a wee bit of inferiority complex. I have been working with ZF since somewhere around 0.9 I think (actually I tried a much earlier iteration and gave up, but the framework and its docs were obviously far less mature at the time).

I have had moments where I have struggled, googled, stared at documentation until my eyes stung and I all but despaired. Lately I had a crisis of faith in which I thought that Zend_Application and all the bootstrapping stuff had become rather excessively complicated. (Yes I know:  you can build a ZF app without Zend_Application if you so choose.) So I am sympathetic to the less sophisticated users who are overwhelmed and frustrated.

When I am really really stuck I turn to the list for help, and usually get it. What more can you ask for?

When I try a new thing  (tutorial, component, what have you) and "it doesn't work," my first question is, "what am I doing wrong?" This attitude doesn't just make me feel noble and righteous for my humility, but actually serves my own interests: it usually leads towards a solution (faster than, say, griping about the deficiencies of the documentation).

Further, I think you can say about your framework of choice what Winston Churchill is said to have said about democracy:  it is the worst form of government, except for all the other forms of government. This is the "worst" framework, except for all the others. Not to bash ZF, no, but rather to point out that you will probably find something to complain about with  _any_ framework you use. ZF, however, gives you the flexibilty to say, "I don't want to do it that way." You can even write old-school spaghetti if you want, and help yourself to a high-quality component here and there.

Finally, if you still find ZF too impenetrable, too unwieldy, too burdensome for you to use in your project... don't use it! Pick another framework, or no framework, or roll your own. Ah, freedom of choice!

--
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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Re: so complex!

Duo Zheng
In reply to this post by Andreas Kraftl
> Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to  
> setup a
> testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

I proposed the improvement a few days ago here: http://framework.zend.com/issues/browse/ZF-7839

On Sep 16, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Andreas Kraftl wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, den 16.09.2009, 08:26 -0400 schrieb Matthew Weier
> O'Phinney:
>
>> On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a  
>> more
>> tutorial oriented section to the manual.
>
> I love this idea. But another idea is, to extend the manual with two
> small things.
>
> Every class where it make sense, should describe how to interact with
> Zend_Application and how to initialize it in the bootstrap. Second is,
> to describe some unittests.
>
> Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to  
> setup a
> testing enviroment with Zend_Application.
>
> Or more better, Zend_Tool can do this.
>
> The main problem this time is, that Zend_Application is a very good  
> and
> in the meantime a central point of the Framework. But the  
> documentation
> covers all before Zend Framework 1.8.
>
> If i am right, I think the manual should be written more in the
> direction Zend_Application.
>
>
> Last point: whenever you say a programmer should know how to create
> things ...
> A programmer knows better, how to delete things than a not programmer
> knows how to add things.
>
> I am not sure, if Zend Framework would be a framework for week
> programmers or beginners. But if so, then change direction of thought
> how to write the manual.
>
> Thanks and greetings
> Andreas
> --
> Kraftl EDV - Dienstleistungen
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Re: so complex!

Nikolaos Dimopoulos
<0.02>

ZF (or any framework) can be extremely intimidating even to competent programmers that English is not their native tongue. I have lived in English speaking countries for the best part of 15 years and still I cannot translate in my native language the difference between a decorator, a validator and other terms used in the framework. Don't even try to get me started on plugins :)

I believe that the best approach for a novice (which I am one) is to use ZF as a glue component. Don't try to dive into the MVC just yet. Code your application the way you usually do and glue ZF components to it. Once you are comfortable with those components your transition to the full MVC architecture will be much easier than any previous attempts.

Finally be curious and ask questions. By far the ZF lists are the most helpful that I have ever seen. There is no RTFM here and people are extremely helpful even if the question appears to be a dumb one or has been answered a million times.

</0.02>
Best regards

Nikolaos Dimopoulos

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On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:26, Duo Zheng <[hidden email]> wrote:
Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

I proposed the improvement a few days ago here: http://framework.zend.com/issues/browse/ZF-7839


On Sep 16, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Andreas Kraftl wrote:

Am Mittwoch, den 16.09.2009, 08:26 -0400 schrieb Matthew Weier
O'Phinney:

On that note, my team and I have begun an initiative to provide a more
tutorial oriented section to the manual.

I love this idea. But another idea is, to extend the manual with two
small things.

Every class where it make sense, should describe how to interact with
Zend_Application and how to initialize it in the bootstrap. Second is,
to describe some unittests.

Especially the chapter about Zend_Test should be clearer, how to setup a
testing enviroment with Zend_Application.

Or more better, Zend_Tool can do this.

The main problem this time is, that Zend_Application is a very good and
in the meantime a central point of the Framework. But the documentation
covers all before Zend Framework 1.8.

If i am right, I think the manual should be written more in the
direction Zend_Application.


Last point: whenever you say a programmer should know how to create
things ...
A programmer knows better, how to delete things than a not programmer
knows how to add things.

I am not sure, if Zend Framework would be a framework for week
programmers or beginners. But if so, then change direction of thought
how to write the manual.

Thanks and greetings
Andreas
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