@ZendTeam : ping

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@ZendTeam : ping

Emmanuel Bouton
Hi all,

I'm a ZF coder for 5 years now. I started with ZF1 and enjoyed its
simplicity.
Then I moved to ZF2 and enjoyed its ability to lead us writing clean code.

However by now I'm really confused by the status of the framework :

 - Activity of the mailing lists (fw-general + fw-contributors) : 10
threads / month max
 - Activity of the source repository :
https://github.com/zendframework/zf2/graphs/commit-activity
   => really scary !

Did I missed something ?

I know that you guys are working hard on apigility, and I'm sure that it is
an exciting project, but don't forget that if the framework dies, apigility
won't survive !

I'm definitively not a fan of Symfony but you must recognise that they have
a really aggressive marketing, a strong and active community, a really good
documentation, and so on !

So if nothing is done in the next month, it will be harder and harder for
your fervent defenders to have arguments against your detractors !!!

I'm sure that you already have read the blog post of Michael :
http://www.michaelgallego.fr/blog/2014/10/04/status-of-zend-framework-3/
Please take the time to give an answer ! Give us more visibility !

My comment on this post :
 - Choice n°1 : nobody wants that but it's definitively up to you guys !
 - Choice n°2 : acceptable solution but doesn't seems to fit with your
availability.
 - Choice n°3 : my favourite ;)

Please don't be offended by my words, I'm just a little sheep that needs to
be reassured by his shepherd ;)

Emmanuel
ps: really sorry for my poor english, I hope It didn't affect the sense of
my thoughts.
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Re: @ZendTeam : ping

Marco Pivetta
Hi Emmanuel,

On 10 November 2014 23:11, Emmanuel Bouton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm a ZF coder for 5 years now. I started with ZF1 and enjoyed its
> simplicity.
> Then I moved to ZF2 and enjoyed its ability to lead us writing clean code.
>
> However by now I'm really confused by the status of the framework :
>
>  - Activity of the mailing lists (fw-general + fw-contributors) : 10
> threads / month max
>

Yes, that's probably due to the fact that nabble is a terrible, terrible
interface for interacting with the mailing list (I use it scarcely myself
too), and the mailing list itself is not used that much anymore since
development discussions typically happen on github, while questions go to
Stackoverflow.


>  - Activity of the source repository :
> https://github.com/zendframework/zf2/graphs/commit-activity
>    => really scary !
>

Nothing scary at all to be honest: merges happen in bursts when someone has
time to handle them (someone in the CR team: next up is me, in order to
push 2.4 out the door, which should happen in the next weeks).


> Did I missed something ?
>
> I know that you guys are working hard on apigility, and I'm sure that it is
> an exciting project, but don't forget that if the framework dies, apigility
> won't survive !
>

Apigility is the focus of the Zend team, not of all the community nor the
CR team.

I'm definitively not a fan of Symfony but you must recognise that they have
> a really aggressive marketing, a strong and active community, a really good
> documentation, and so on !
>
> So if nothing is done in the next month, it will be harder and harder for
> your fervent defenders to have arguments against your detractors !!!
>

Agree on that, but we don't have marketing for ZendFramework at all, since
it's mainly a community project, and not the primary focus of any company.
As for the community, it needs to wake up indeed: most frequent
contributors are mainly off building small decoupled components that don't
even depend on ZF, that's why you don't really see ZF mentioned a lot.
I actually think this is a good thing (decoupled, independent components:
it means that there is some maturity in design decisions being made), but
it may indeed be perceived as low developer activity.


> I'm sure that you already have read the blog post of Michael :
> http://www.michaelgallego.fr/blog/2014/10/04/status-of-zend-framework-3/
> Please take the time to give an answer ! Give us more visibility !
>
> My comment on this post :
>  - Choice n°1 : nobody wants that but it's definitively up to you guys !
>  - Choice n°2 : acceptable solution but doesn't seems to fit with your
> availability.
>  - Choice n°3 : my favourite ;)
>

Some actions have been taken exactly based on that post.
What can be said here is that ZF 2.4 needs to be released before we
kickstart things again, and it takes some effort to get there (a couple
hundred issues to deal with: will likely do this week).


> Please don't be offended by my words, I'm just a little sheep that needs to
> be reassured by his shepherd ;)
>

You're not the first to ask about this situation, nor I think you will be
the last, so no need to worry, nobody is being offended by perfectly legit
questioning.

Greets,

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius

http://ocramius.github.com/
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Re: @ZendTeam : ping

Ralf Eggert
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bouton
Hi,

while I think that no 3 is an interesting idea, I'm afraid it will piss
off a lot of people if components like Zend\Config, Zend\Db,
Zend\Console, or Zend\Permissions get kicked for a ZF3 release.

I am doing a lot of ZF2 beginner trainings these days and most of my
attendees are planning to use ZF2 as a full-stack framework. Some come
from ZF1, others are at the stage to use the first Open-Source framework
in their work and picked ZF2. There was a lot of frustration in the ZF2
users community because they felt left a lone on the migration stuff. No
3 might be the final death blow if the very strict list of components
Michaël suggested will build the new ZF3.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't care about stuff like Zend\Barcode or
Zend\Text or Zend\Captcha. But to take out too much components from the
core might be wrong choice.

Nevertheless, I am really interested in any feedback from Matthew and
his team on this. From the comments for Michaëls blog post I understand
that there was an IRC meeting, but no official statement yet.

Thanks and best regards,

Ralf

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Re: @ZendTeam : ping

Marco Pivetta
Hi Ralf,

On 11 November 2014 07:30, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> while I think that no 3 is an interesting idea, I'm afraid it will piss
> off a lot of people if components like Zend\Config, Zend\Db,
> Zend\Console, or Zend\Permissions get kicked for a ZF3 release.
>

Not really kicked, just all components would be exploded into smaller libs,
as they should be.


> I am doing a lot of ZF2 beginner trainings these days and most of my
> attendees are planning to use ZF2 as a full-stack framework. Some come
> from ZF1, others are at the stage to use the first Open-Source framework
> in their work and picked ZF2. There was a lot of frustration in the ZF2
> users community because they felt left a lone on the migration stuff. No
> 3 might be the final death blow if the very strict list of components
> Michaël suggested will build the new ZF3.
>

This has been discussed, and indeed there's no intention to cause a major
BC break: the components will just be exploded, not removed.


> Please don't get me wrong. I don't care about stuff like Zend\Barcode or
> Zend\Text or Zend\Captcha. But to take out too much components from the
> core might be wrong choice.
>
> Nevertheless, I am really interested in any feedback from Matthew and
> his team on this. From the comments for Michaëls blog post I understand
> that there was an IRC meeting, but no official statement yet.
>

Waiting for that as well. As mentioned in my previous response to Emmanuel,
for now we need to push 2.4 out the door.

Greets,

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius

http://ocramius.github.com/
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Re: @ZendTeam : ping

Emmanuel Bouton
In reply to this post by Marco Pivetta
Thanks Marco for your answer !
I'll suscribe to stackoveflow and github updates :)

2014-11-11 2:12 GMT+01:00 Marco Pivetta <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Emmanuel,
>
> On 10 November 2014 23:11, Emmanuel Bouton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm a ZF coder for 5 years now. I started with ZF1 and enjoyed its
>> simplicity.
>> Then I moved to ZF2 and enjoyed its ability to lead us writing clean code.
>>
>> However by now I'm really confused by the status of the framework :
>>
>>  - Activity of the mailing lists (fw-general + fw-contributors) : 10
>> threads / month max
>>
>
> Yes, that's probably due to the fact that nabble is a terrible, terrible
> interface for interacting with the mailing list (I use it scarcely myself
> too), and the mailing list itself is not used that much anymore since
> development discussions typically happen on github, while questions go to
> Stackoverflow.
>
>
>>  - Activity of the source repository :
>> https://github.com/zendframework/zf2/graphs/commit-activity
>>    => really scary !
>>
>
> Nothing scary at all to be honest: merges happen in bursts when someone
> has time to handle them (someone in the CR team: next up is me, in order to
> push 2.4 out the door, which should happen in the next weeks).
>
>
>> Did I missed something ?
>>
>> I know that you guys are working hard on apigility, and I'm sure that it
>> is
>> an exciting project, but don't forget that if the framework dies,
>> apigility
>> won't survive !
>>
>
> Apigility is the focus of the Zend team, not of all the community nor the
> CR team.
>
> I'm definitively not a fan of Symfony but you must recognise that they have
>> a really aggressive marketing, a strong and active community, a really
>> good
>> documentation, and so on !
>>
>> So if nothing is done in the next month, it will be harder and harder for
>> your fervent defenders to have arguments against your detractors !!!
>>
>
> Agree on that, but we don't have marketing for ZendFramework at all, since
> it's mainly a community project, and not the primary focus of any company.
> As for the community, it needs to wake up indeed: most frequent
> contributors are mainly off building small decoupled components that don't
> even depend on ZF, that's why you don't really see ZF mentioned a lot.
> I actually think this is a good thing (decoupled, independent components:
> it means that there is some maturity in design decisions being made), but
> it may indeed be perceived as low developer activity.
>
>
>> I'm sure that you already have read the blog post of Michael :
>> http://www.michaelgallego.fr/blog/2014/10/04/status-of-zend-framework-3/
>> Please take the time to give an answer ! Give us more visibility !
>>
>> My comment on this post :
>>  - Choice n°1 : nobody wants that but it's definitively up to you guys !
>>  - Choice n°2 : acceptable solution but doesn't seems to fit with your
>> availability.
>>  - Choice n°3 : my favourite ;)
>>
>
> Some actions have been taken exactly based on that post.
> What can be said here is that ZF 2.4 needs to be released before we
> kickstart things again, and it takes some effort to get there (a couple
> hundred issues to deal with: will likely do this week).
>
>
>> Please don't be offended by my words, I'm just a little sheep that needs
>> to
>> be reassured by his shepherd ;)
>>
>
> You're not the first to ask about this situation, nor I think you will be
> the last, so no need to worry, nobody is being offended by perfectly legit
> questioning.
>
> Greets,
>
> Marco Pivetta
>
> http://twitter.com/Ocramius
>
> http://ocramius.github.com/
>
>
>
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Re: @ZendTeam : ping

Ralf Eggert
In reply to this post by Marco Pivetta
Hi Marco,

> Not really kicked, just all components would be exploded into smaller
> libs, as they should be.

Ok, I mistunderstood the suggestion then. If that is the case it is
almost the same what I would see the ZF3 to go like.

> Waiting for that as well. As mentioned in my previous response to
> Emmanuel, for now we need to push 2.4 out the door.

Ok, good to know. How can the community help?

Thanks and best regards,

Ralf

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Info: http://framework.zend.com/archives
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Re: @ZendTeam : ping

Ralf Eggert
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bouton
Hi again,

as an addition to the discussion, here are the very concrete plans for
Symfony 3. Becoming just an evolutional update rather that a
revolutional update looks quite the same as the plans for ZF3.

http://symfony.com/blog/symfony-3-0-the-roadmap

Would be really nice to see a roadmap like this as well for the ZF3.

Thanks and best regards,

Ralf

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Info: http://framework.zend.com/archives
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Re: @ZendTeam : ping

renatomefidf
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bouton
Hello Emmanuel,

I support your opinion and agree that Zend needs to be more clear about the project status and it's objectives.

Let's see if anyone can answer us.

I recommend you to also forward this post to ZF Contributors group!

---------------------------------------------------------
Renato Mendes Figueiredo
(61) 9122-5946 ou (61) 3345-8648

On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 8:06 PM, Emmanuel Bouton [via Zend Framework Community] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

I'm a ZF coder for 5 years now. I started with ZF1 and enjoyed its
simplicity.
Then I moved to ZF2 and enjoyed its ability to lead us writing clean code.

However by now I'm really confused by the status of the framework :

 - Activity of the mailing lists (fw-general + fw-contributors) : 10
threads / month max
 - Activity of the source repository :
https://github.com/zendframework/zf2/graphs/commit-activity
   => really scary !

Did I missed something ?

I know that you guys are working hard on apigility, and I'm sure that it is
an exciting project, but don't forget that if the framework dies, apigility
won't survive !

I'm definitively not a fan of Symfony but you must recognise that they have
a really aggressive marketing, a strong and active community, a really good
documentation, and so on !

So if nothing is done in the next month, it will be harder and harder for
your fervent defenders to have arguments against your detractors !!!

I'm sure that you already have read the blog post of Michael :
http://www.michaelgallego.fr/blog/2014/10/04/status-of-zend-framework-3/
Please take the time to give an answer ! Give us more visibility !

My comment on this post :
 - Choice n°1 : nobody wants that but it's definitively up to you guys !
 - Choice n°2 : acceptable solution but doesn't seems to fit with your
availability.
 - Choice n°3 : my favourite ;)

Please don't be offended by my words, I'm just a little sheep that needs to
be reassured by his shepherd ;)

Emmanuel
ps: really sorry for my poor english, I hope It didn't affect the sense of
my thoughts.



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