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Zend_Pdf requirements

Alexander Veremyev
Hi all,

I've tried to collect Zend_Pdf functionality requests and bring them into one list. It's placed in FW wiki now (http://framework.zend.com/wiki/x/45Y).

I ordered it by a priority I think items should have.

May be something is missing in this list? Or priority should be changed?
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcome!


With best regards,
   Alexander Veremyev.

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.14/1100 - Release Date: 30.10.2007 18:26
 
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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

holografix
Hi

It's just a suggestion. It would be nice to draw SVG images
(Zend_pdf_image).

Here is a link to a class that creates pdf with svg embedded:
http://www.godisaduck.com/file/svgload.zip?id=86&type=zip

Best regards
holo

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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Freddie Witherden-2
Hi

> It's just a suggestion. It would be nice to draw SVG images  
> (Zend_pdf_image).

See: http://www.mail-archive.com/fw-general@.../ 
msg03895.html . I (personally) think that the future is in the PHP-
Cairo bindings, which Zend_pdf could then wrap around to provide  
convenience functions. Although I think it will be a while before the  
Cairo bindings attain widespread usage.

Regards, Freddie.
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RE: Zend_Pdf requirements

Alexander Veremyev
In reply to this post by Alexander Veremyev
Yeah, good idea. It already was requested at least one time.
I've just added it into the list.

With best regards,
   Alexander Veremyev.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Holografix [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 9:04 PM
> To: Alexander Veremyev
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [fw-general] Zend_Pdf requirements
>
> Hi
>
> It's just a suggestion. It would be nice to draw SVG images
> (Zend_pdf_image).
>
> Here is a link to a class that creates pdf with svg embedded:
> http://www.godisaduck.com/file/svgload.zip?id=86&type=zip
>
> Best regards
> holo
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.14/1100 - Release Date:
> 30.10.2007 18:26
>

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.14/1100 - Release Date: 30.10.2007 18:26
 
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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Karol Grecki
In reply to this post by Alexander Veremyev

Hi Alexander,

I used Zend_Pdf extensively in one of my projects and these are features I missed the most:
-tables
-text blocks
-links (pdf reader will recognize full urls, but I couldn't find a way to output link with arbitrary name)

Cheers

Alexander Veremyev wrote
Hi all,

I've tried to collect Zend_Pdf functionality requests and bring them into one list. It's placed in FW wiki now (http://framework.zend.com/wiki/x/45Y).

I ordered it by a priority I think items should have.

May be something is missing in this list? Or priority should be changed?
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcome!
 
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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Bryce Lohr-2
Hi Alexander,

I'd like to second Karol's request for text block formatting. IMHO, I think text blocks (with automatic line/page breaks and alignment) should be moved up the priority list. This is the missing feature preventing me from using Zend_Pdf right now.

Respectfully,
Bryce Lohr


Karol Grecki wrote:
Hi Alexander,

I used Zend_Pdf extensively in one of my projects and these are features I
missed the most:
-tables
-text blocks
-links (pdf reader will recognize full urls, but I couldn't find a way to
output link with arbitrary name)

Cheers


Alexander Veremyev wrote:
  
Hi all,

I've tried to collect Zend_Pdf functionality requests and bring them into
one list. It's placed in FW wiki now
(http://framework.zend.com/wiki/x/45Y).

I ordered it by a priority I think items should have.

May be something is missing in this list? Or priority should be changed?
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcome!
 


    

  
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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Charlie Dover
In reply to this post by Alexander Veremyev

Personally, I'd like to see support for vector EPS images. Even minimal
support for older formats would be nice.

-CD

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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Jack Sleight
I'll second that.

Charlie Dover wrote:
>
> Personally, I'd like to see support for vector EPS images. Even
> minimal support for older formats would be nice.
>
> -CD
>

--
Jack
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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Freddie Witherden-2
In reply to this post by Charlie Dover
Hi.

> Personally, I'd like to see support for vector EPS images. Even  
> minimal support for older formats would be nice.

I believe it is possible to include PDF files using Zend_Pdf and so  
using a utility such as epstopdf you can convert your EPS images to  
PDF files which you can then include in Zend_Pdf documents.

Regards, Freddie.
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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Rick Gigger-2
In reply to this post by Bryce Lohr-2
Is there an actual feature in the pdf spec for handling text blocks or will the zend library handle measuring and wrapping the text and then simply drawing each line in it's respective location on the page?  


On Nov 2, 2007, at 6:42 AM, Bryce Lohr wrote:

Hi Alexander,

I'd like to second Karol's request for text block formatting. IMHO, I think text blocks (with automatic line/page breaks and alignment) should be moved up the priority list. This is the missing feature preventing me from using Zend_Pdf right now.

Respectfully,
Bryce Lohr


Karol Grecki wrote:
Hi Alexander,

I used Zend_Pdf extensively in one of my projects and these are features I
missed the most:
-tables
-text blocks
-links (pdf reader will recognize full urls, but I couldn't find a way to
output link with arbitrary name)

Cheers


Alexander Veremyev wrote:
  
Hi all,

I've tried to collect Zend_Pdf functionality requests and bring them into
one list. It's placed in FW wiki now
(http://framework.zend.com/wiki/x/45Y).

I ordered it by a priority I think items should have.

May be something is missing in this list? Or priority should be changed?
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcome!
 


    
  

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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

pat-41
In reply to this post by Alexander Veremyev
Hi Alexander,

I'd like to see the security features moved up.  The actual algo used to
encrypt/decrytp doesn't matter right now.   But get the essential API
down with a pluggable encryption architecture.

The actual encryption scheme likely has other uses and could be factored
out.  Zend_Encrypt or something.


cheers,

pat
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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Bryce Lohr-2
In reply to this post by Rick Gigger-2
I'm not PDF expert, but by my understanding, there's not formal text block construct in the PDF spec. Zend_Pdf would have provide that feature, and do the calculations to translate it to the appropriate PDF code. This is what the other PDF classes I've used do (namely R&OS and FPDF).

Regards,
Bryce Lohr


Rick Gigger wrote:
Is there an actual feature in the pdf spec for handling text blocks or will the zend library handle measuring and wrapping the text and then simply drawing each line in it's respective location on the page?  


On Nov 2, 2007, at 6:42 AM, Bryce Lohr wrote:

Hi Alexander,

I'd like to second Karol's request for text block formatting. IMHO, I think text blocks (with automatic line/page breaks and alignment) should be moved up the priority list. This is the missing feature preventing me from using Zend_Pdf right now.

Respectfully,
Bryce Lohr


Karol Grecki wrote:
Hi Alexander,

I used Zend_Pdf extensively in one of my projects and these are features I
missed the most:
-tables
-text blocks
-links (pdf reader will recognize full urls, but I couldn't find a way to
output link with arbitrary name)

Cheers


Alexander Veremyev wrote:
  
Hi all,

I've tried to collect Zend_Pdf functionality requests and bring them into
one list. It's placed in FW wiki now
(http://framework.zend.com/wiki/x/45Y).

I ordered it by a priority I think items should have.

May be something is missing in this list? Or priority should be changed?
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcome!
 


    
  

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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Rick Gigger
In reply to this post by Alexander Veremyev
I noticed that you intend to add "Full UTF-8 support".  Last time I  
investigated using unicode directly in pdfs I concluded that you could  
only use unicode in a pdf if you also embedded a unicode font into the  
pdf.  This was a long time ago and it's possible I was incorrect in  
that conclusion.  But I am curious as to how you are planning on  
implementing this.  My understanding is that you have to either embed  
the unicode font, or convert each bit of text to other non-unicode  
encodings.  I would love it if I was wrong and it was now possible to  
include unicode directly in the pdf without having to embed the font.


On Nov 1, 2007, at 11:23 AM, Alexander Veremyev wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've tried to collect Zend_Pdf functionality requests and bring them  
> into one list. It's placed in FW wiki now (http://framework.zend.com/wiki/x/45Y 
> ).
>
> I ordered it by a priority I think items should have.
>
> May be something is missing in this list? Or priority should be  
> changed?
> Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcome!
>
>
> With best regards,
>   Alexander Veremyev.
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.14/1100 - Release Date:  
> 30.10.2007 18:26
>
>

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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Rick Gigger
In reply to this post by Alexander Veremyev
I am currently using both R&OS PDF and FPDF.  I'm going to need to add  
support for both Japanese and Chinese soon.  I am planning on either  
updating one or both of those those two pdf engines to handle unicode  
or switching over to Zend_Pdf entirely and adding in the support there  
for that.  I know that I can just extend FPDF to work if I need to but  
I don't know if I could just extend Zend_Pdf or if I would need to  
actually patch the code to Zend_Pdf itself.  Of course if I could  
discuss my implementation with a Zend_Pdf developer and gain  
confidence that my changes could be incorporated into Zend_Pdf that  
would be optimal.

Also if Zend_Pdf completes Full UTF-8 support before I do that would  
be even better.  Just looking for ways to share the load, if anyone  
here is interested in discussing this with me please drop me a line,  
on or off the list.

Thanks,

Rick



On Nov 1, 2007, at 11:23 AM, Alexander Veremyev wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've tried to collect Zend_Pdf functionality requests and bring them  
> into one list. It's placed in FW wiki now (http://framework.zend.com/wiki/x/45Y 
> ).
>
> I ordered it by a priority I think items should have.
>
> May be something is missing in this list? Or priority should be  
> changed?
> Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcome!
>
>
> With best regards,
>   Alexander Veremyev.
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.14/1100 - Release Date:  
> 30.10.2007 18:26
>
>

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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Bryce Lohr-2
Just FYI (in case you're not already aware), R&OS and FPDF both have
several features (particularly with text formatting, such as automatic
line and page breaks, automatic text positioning) that are not currently
implemented in Zend_Pdf. You will probably want to keep that in mind,
since you're most likely using those features right now.

HTH,
Bryce Lohr


Rick Gigger wrote:

> I am currently using both R&OS PDF and FPDF.  I'm going to need to add
> support for both Japanese and Chinese soon.  I am planning on either
> updating one or both of those those two pdf engines to handle unicode
> or switching over to Zend_Pdf entirely and adding in the support there
> for that.  I know that I can just extend FPDF to work if I need to but
> I don't know if I could just extend Zend_Pdf or if I would need to
> actually patch the code to Zend_Pdf itself.  Of course if I could
> discuss my implementation with a Zend_Pdf developer and gain
> confidence that my changes could be incorporated into Zend_Pdf that
> would be optimal.
>
> Also if Zend_Pdf completes Full UTF-8 support before I do that would
> be even better.  Just looking for ways to share the load, if anyone
> here is interested in discussing this with me please drop me a line,
> on or off the list.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Nov 1, 2007, at 11:23 AM, Alexander Veremyev wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've tried to collect Zend_Pdf functionality requests and bring them
>> into one list. It's placed in FW wiki now
>> (http://framework.zend.com/wiki/x/45Y).
>>
>> I ordered it by a priority I think items should have.
>>
>> May be something is missing in this list? Or priority should be changed?
>> Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcome!
>>
>>
>> With best regards,
>>   Alexander Veremyev.
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.14/1100 - Release Date:
>> 30.10.2007 18:26
>>
>>
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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Rick Gigger
Yes, I was aware of those.  I don't use them because I implemented my  
own xml based solutions that has support for tables, page breaking,  
columns, full rich text support, etc.  The basic support in those two  
engines was never enough.  All I really need are the primitives to  
measure, style and draw text, and of course primitive line and shape  
drawing operations.  I have an abstraction layer that lets me swap  
back and forth between R&OS and FPDF.  My XML parser / DOM style  
rendering library handles the rest.  So I don't think it would be too  
hard to use Zend_Pdf instead.

I have also used the extensions listed on the FPDF homepage to add  
Chinese and other multi-byte languages to PDFs.  It is fairly  
straightforward.  The bigger issue is that all of these examples  
involve using local encodings, not unicode.  Once you start wanting to  
throw unicode in there it gets a little tricky.

The PDF renderer needs to map the text it is trying to render to an  
available font.  Unfortunately none of the standard PDF fonts are  
unicode fonts.  So if you want to be able to actually put unicode text  
in and have it understood then you have to (if I am reading the spec  
correctly) embed the unicode font right into the PDF .  Licensing  
issues aside entire unicode fonts are about 10-20 Mb.  Most of the  
PDFs I generate are under 50 Kb so that's certainly not going to  
work.  So what I am left with is to determine the language of each  
block of text and convert it to a local encoding that the PDF spec  
will happily accept.  That seems a little tricky.

Say you have a small segment of Japanese with only a few Kanji  
characters.  How do I distinguish that from a few characters of  
Traditional Chinese?  Lets say I figure that part out but then they  
have say Korean mixed into the same text with Japanese.  I have to  
split out the Korean from the Japanese and draw them separately each  
time converting to a local encoding and indicating the correct font to  
use.

Anyway that is the problem as I see it.  Once I get this figured out I  
would happily contribute any or all of it to Zend_Pdf if the author  
wants it.  I have this hope that someone working on the Zend_Pdf is  
going to say that I've read the spec all wrong and that I can somehow  
add unicode text directly to the pdf and have the PDF reader map it  
all to a unicode font if present or into the various non-unicode local  
fonts if if it's not.  And of course if whoever is working on the  
UTF-8 support for Zend_Pdf figures it all out and implements it I'll  
be more than happy to just switch my rendering engine to just use  
Zend_Pdf for primitives and get the unicode support for free.

Hopefully this will spark some discussion about the implementation of  
such a feature.  Also if this is not the correct list for this sort of  
discussion could someone please direct me to the correct place.

Thanks,

Rick


On Nov 7, 2007, at 3:47 PM, Bryce Lohr wrote:

> Just FYI (in case you're not already aware), R&OS and FPDF both have  
> several features (particularly with text formatting, such as  
> automatic line and page breaks, automatic text positioning) that are  
> not currently implemented in Zend_Pdf. You will probably want to  
> keep that in mind, since you're most likely using those features  
> right now.
>
> HTH,
> Bryce Lohr
>
>
> Rick Gigger wrote:
>> I am currently using both R&OS PDF and FPDF.  I'm going to need to  
>> add support for both Japanese and Chinese soon.  I am planning on  
>> either updating one or both of those those two pdf engines to  
>> handle unicode or switching over to Zend_Pdf entirely and adding in  
>> the support there for that.  I know that I can just extend FPDF to  
>> work if I need to but I don't know if I could just extend Zend_Pdf  
>> or if I would need to actually patch the code to Zend_Pdf itself.  
>> Of course if I could discuss my implementation with a Zend_Pdf  
>> developer and gain confidence that my changes could be incorporated  
>> into Zend_Pdf that would be optimal.
>>
>> Also if Zend_Pdf completes Full UTF-8 support before I do that  
>> would be even better.  Just looking for ways to share the load, if  
>> anyone here is interested in discussing this with me please drop me  
>> a line, on or off the list.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 1, 2007, at 11:23 AM, Alexander Veremyev wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I've tried to collect Zend_Pdf functionality requests and bring  
>>> them into one list. It's placed in FW wiki now (http://framework.zend.com/wiki/x/45Y 
>>> ).
>>>
>>> I ordered it by a priority I think items should have.
>>>
>>> May be something is missing in this list? Or priority should be  
>>> changed?
>>> Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcome!
>>>
>>>
>>> With best regards,
>>>  Alexander Veremyev.
>>>
>>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.14/1100 - Release Date:  
>>> 30.10.2007 18:26
>>>
>>>

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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Bryce Lohr-2

Rick Gigger wrote:
> Yes, I was aware of those.  I don't use them because I implemented my
> own xml based solutions that has support for tables, page breaking,
> columns, full rich text support, etc.  The basic support in those two
> engines was never enough.  All I really need are the primitives to
> measure, style and draw text, and of course primitive line and shape
> drawing operations.  I have an abstraction layer that lets me swap
> back and forth between R&OS and FPDF.  My XML parser / DOM style
> rendering library handles the rest.  So I don't think it would be too
> hard to use Zend_Pdf instead.
That sounds really interesting... I can see why switching to Zend_Pdf
wouldn't be too hard at that point.

> The PDF renderer needs to map the text it is trying to render to an
> available font.  Unfortunately none of the standard PDF fonts are
> unicode fonts.  So if you want to be able to actually put unicode text
> in and have it understood then you have to (if I am reading the spec
> correctly) embed the unicode font right into the PDF .  Licensing
> issues aside entire unicode fonts are about 10-20 Mb.  Most of the
> PDFs I generate are under 50 Kb so that's certainly not going to
> work.  So what I am left with is to determine the language of each
> block of text and convert it to a local encoding that the PDF spec
> will happily accept.  That seems a little tricky.
I'm no PDF expert, but for some reason I thought you could embed partial
fonts. Meaning, you would only have to embed the glyphs you actually
used in the document. Seemingly, you could do that with the Unicode font
to drastically bring down the size requirement.

>
> Say you have a small segment of Japanese with only a few Kanji
> characters.  How do I distinguish that from a few characters of
> Traditional Chinese?  Lets say I figure that part out but then they
> have say Korean mixed into the same text with Japanese.  I have to
> split out the Korean from the Japanese and draw them separately each
> time converting to a local encoding and indicating the correct font to
> use.
>
> Anyway that is the problem as I see it.  Once I get this figured out I
> would happily contribute any or all of it to Zend_Pdf if the author
> wants it.  I have this hope that someone working on the Zend_Pdf is
> going to say that I've read the spec all wrong and that I can somehow
> add unicode text directly to the pdf and have the PDF reader map it
> all to a unicode font if present or into the various non-unicode local
> fonts if if it's not.  And of course if whoever is working on the
> UTF-8 support for Zend_Pdf figures it all out and implements it I'll
> be more than happy to just switch my rendering engine to just use
> Zend_Pdf for primitives and get the unicode support for free.
>
That definitely sounds like a tricky problem. I haven't read all the PDF
spec, nor have I worked much with the Zend_Pdf code, so I unfortunately
don't have any answers, here. I suppose you could just build a PDF file
with all those characters, and see if it comes out as gibberish.

Regards,
Bryce Lohr

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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Rick Gigger

On Nov 8, 2007, at 7:30 AM, Bryce Lohr wrote:

>
> Rick Gigger wrote:
>> The PDF renderer needs to map the text it is trying to render to an  
>> available font.  Unfortunately none of the standard PDF fonts are  
>> unicode fonts.  So if you want to be able to actually put unicode  
>> text in and have it understood then you have to (if I am reading  
>> the spec correctly) embed the unicode font right into the PDF .  
>> Licensing issues aside entire unicode fonts are about 10-20 Mb.  
>> Most of the PDFs I generate are under 50 Kb so that's certainly not  
>> going to work.  So what I am left with is to determine the language  
>> of each block of text and convert it to a local encoding that the  
>> PDF spec will happily accept.  That seems a little tricky.
> I'm no PDF expert, but for some reason I thought you could embed  
> partial fonts. Meaning, you would only have to embed the glyphs you  
> actually used in the document. Seemingly, you could do that with the  
> Unicode font to drastically bring down the size requirement.

Oh yeah.  That is one other possibility.  So that just leaves the  
problem of how to do that.  :)  I think I will investigate that  
options as well.
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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Philip Iezzi-3
In reply to this post by Rick Gigger
Rick Gigger wrote:
> Yes, I was aware of those.  I don't use them because I implemented my
> own xml based solutions that has support for tables, page breaking,
> columns, full rich text support, etc.  The basic support in those two
> engines was never enough.  All I really need are the primitives to
> measure, style and draw text, and of course primitive line and shape
> drawing operations.  I have an abstraction layer that lets me swap back
> and forth between R&OS and FPDF.  My XML parser / DOM style rendering
> library handles the rest.  So I don't think it would be too hard to use
> Zend_Pdf instead.

Great! Any way of contributing your code to the community?
I just started to switch from PEAR::File_PDF to Zend_Pdf but I'm kind of disappointed that Zend_Pdf is still at the same spot as a year ago what concerns improved text functions.
I played around with Zend_Pdf_Cell presented in issue http://framework.zend.com/issues/browse/ZF-1254 but it does not work as expected (e.g. character width is not calculated correctly, center alignment is no real center alignment, line wrapping does not seem to work at all,...).
We all would terribly appreciate your piece of code!

Take care
Philip
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Re: Zend_Pdf requirements

Rick Gigger
On Nov 8, 2007, at 9:26 AM, Philip Iezzi wrote:

> Rick Gigger wrote:
>> Yes, I was aware of those.  I don't use them because I implemented my
>> own xml based solutions that has support for tables, page breaking,
>> columns, full rich text support, etc.  The basic support in those two
>> engines was never enough.  All I really need are the primitives to
>> measure, style and draw text, and of course primitive line and shape
>> drawing operations.  I have an abstraction layer that lets me swap  
>> back
>> and forth between R&OS and FPDF.  My XML parser / DOM style rendering
>> library handles the rest.  So I don't think it would be too hard to  
>> use
>> Zend_Pdf instead.
>
> Great! Any way of contributing your code to the community?
> I just started to switch from PEAR::File_PDF to Zend_Pdf but I'm  
> kind of disappointed that Zend_Pdf is still at the same spot as a  
> year ago what concerns improved text functions.
> I played around with Zend_Pdf_Cell presented in issue http://framework.zend.com/issues/browse/ZF-1254 
>  but it does not work as expected (e.g. character width is not  
> calculated correctly, center alignment is no real center alignment,  
> line wrapping does not seem to work at all,...).
> We all would terribly appreciate your piece of code!

I can make the existing code available right now if people want it but  
I think some code cleanup and documentation would be needed before it  
could be accepted into something like Zend Framework.  If anyone wants  
to help out with that effort that would be great.

The biggest issue is that the XML format is mostly in my head and only  
documented in stuff that I have already done so in order to figure out  
how to use it you have to have access to examples or you have to pick  
through the code.  Also as with most first attempts at something  
complicated you finish it up, get it working and finally know the way  
it really should have been done in the first place.

So I think the best thing would be to start a clean implementation  
now.  I can start with basic rich text / wrapping / alignment  
features.  I will be able to copy most of that over directly from the  
existing project because that code is very good and is actually more  
of a 4th or 5th generation product.  I started off doing simple text  
wrapping and alignment on R&OS PDF about 5 years ago and it has  
evolved significantly since then.  That should be immediately useful  
to people and could be used on top of Zend_Pdf without actually  
modifying it.

First will come the DOM objects for doing the rendering and shortly  
thereafter I will include an extensible XML parser so that creating  
documents and testing will be much easier.

Then I can start to add stuff like tables and columns and other layout  
features where I will need to do a little more R&D.  Eventually if the  
Zend people want to start incorporating it into the framework they  
will be more than welcome to.  I would be willing to help out with the  
integration where my time and expertise permits.

The only thing that has really been keeping me from releasing this  
stuff in the past (other than time of course) is that I didn't know  
anyone who was interested in it.  If I could get some feedback from  
you guys as I go it would be very helpful to me.

One thing to keep in mind is that my DOM is loosely based on XHTML.  I  
have drawn most of my tag names from it and am in the middle of a  
rudimentary CSS implemention to abstract some of the style information  
out of the XML.  I have made specific changes though for precision  
placement of layout items and for precise control of page breaking and  
associated needs.  For example I have attributes on table headers to  
control whether or not they repeat if the table is broken across  
multiple pages.  I don't see any reason though that someone couldn't  
write a completely different XML layer (FOP?) and use my DOM objects  
underneath.  That is where all the real work is anyway.  The drawback  
there is that the naming of the DOM objects will in most instances  
correspond with HTML tag names and their functionality will be geared  
towards my view of what you need to do proper PDF layouts, which may  
be very different from something like FOP.  My impression of FOP was  
that it might be great but it was a little too ambitions.  I say that  
with regards to both implementing and using it.  By focusing on a  
subset of XHTML I was able to get the functionality that I needed  
working quickly and it is somewhat intuitive to learn for anyone who  
has done even basic HTML work.

Anyway anyone who is interested let me know and I will notify you (or  
should I just notify the list) when I have something ready for you to  
download.

Thanks,

Rick
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