Zend Framework Q&A website

[Tomáš Fejfar]

I missed MWOP's  How can I propose new functionality for the framework? 

2012/3/14 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>

Yes, but look at the question selection - 97% of them are stackexchange on-topic. The only two obvious offtopic are those I posted :)) It seems like a good idea to add such questions to the list to show that many of ZF related questions are SE offtopic. 

2012/3/13 Jurian Sluiman <[hidden email]>

Op 13 mrt. 2012 21:57 schreef "Tomáš Fejfar" <[hidden email]> het volgende:

>
> Because you can ask a ton of questions that are about drupal and will be marked as offtopic on StackOverflow. Like "How do I create a subpage for a page in Drupal" or "What are good texts for html_description in Drupal", etc.

Please bear in mind you'll get the same type of  question with the to-be-created module ecosystem for zf2. I see this q&a for all kind of  questions, not all of them will be programming (and thus for SO) related.
--
Jurian Sluiman

[H Glenn Hatfield]

I don't know if it's the right way to do it or not, but I've been going back in and checking the questions I had voted on. If they had more than 10 up-votes, I removed my up-vote and found another question I thought was appropriate and voted it up. We technically have enough people registered to make it to the next round if none of the questions go above 10 up-votes and we are able to consolidate the votes onto the 40 most deserving questions.

H

On Mar 14, 2012, at 5:26 AM, Tomáš Fejfar wrote:

I missed MWOP's  How can I propose new functionality for the framework? 

2012/3/14 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>

Yes, but look at the question selection - 97% of them are stackexchange on-topic. The only two obvious offtopic are those I posted :)) It seems like a good idea to add such questions to the list to show that many of ZF related questions are SE offtopic. 

2012/3/13 Jurian Sluiman <[hidden email]>

Op 13 mrt. 2012 21:57 schreef "Tomáš Fejfar" <[hidden email]> het volgende:

>
> Because you can ask a ton of questions that are about drupal and will be marked as offtopic on StackOverflow. Like "How do I create a subpage for a page in Drupal" or "What are good texts for html_description in Drupal", etc.

Please bear in mind you'll get the same type of  question with the to-be-created module ecosystem for zf2. I see this q&a for all kind of  questions, not all of them will be programming (and thus for SO) related.
--
Jurian Sluiman

[Tomáš Fejfar]

>  going back in and checking the questions I had voted on. If they had more than 10 up-votes, I removed my up-vote and found another question I thought was appropriate and voted it up. 

That's a very clever thing to do. I'll try to do that too... 

2012/3/14 H Glenn Hatfield <[hidden email]>

I don't know if it's the right way to do it or not, but I've been going back in and checking the questions I had voted on. If they had more than 10 up-votes, I removed my up-vote and found another question I thought was appropriate and voted it up. We technically have enough people registered to make it to the next round if none of the questions go above 10 up-votes and we are able to consolidate the votes onto the 40 most deserving questions.

H

On Mar 14, 2012, at 5:26 AM, Tomáš Fejfar wrote:

I missed MWOP's  How can I propose new functionality for the framework? 

2012/3/14 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>

Yes, but look at the question selection - 97% of them are stackexchange on-topic. The only two obvious offtopic are those I posted :)) It seems like a good idea to add such questions to the list to show that many of ZF related questions are SE offtopic. 

2012/3/13 Jurian Sluiman <[hidden email]>

Op 13 mrt. 2012 21:57 schreef "Tomáš Fejfar" <[hidden email]> het volgende:

>
> Because you can ask a ton of questions that are about drupal and will be marked as offtopic on StackOverflow. Like "How do I create a subpage for a page in Drupal" or "What are good texts for html_description in Drupal", etc.

Please bear in mind you'll get the same type of  question with the to-be-created module ecosystem for zf2. I see this q&a for all kind of  questions, not all of them will be programming (and thus for SO) related.
--
Jurian Sluiman

[Anthony Shireman]

Greetings!

For those of you who aren't watching closely, there's only a few more votes needed to meet the question requirements to move the proposal to the next step. Vote up the lower ranking questions and we'll move on. Thanks everybody!


Tony

2012/3/14 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>

>  going back in and checking the questions I had voted on. If they had more than 10 up-votes, I removed my up-vote and found another question I thought was appropriate and voted it up. 

That's a very clever thing to do. I'll try to do that too... 

2012/3/14 H Glenn Hatfield <[hidden email]>

I don't know if it's the right way to do it or not, but I've been going back in and checking the questions I had voted on. If they had more than 10 up-votes, I removed my up-vote and found another question I thought was appropriate and voted it up. We technically have enough people registered to make it to the next round if none of the questions go above 10 up-votes and we are able to consolidate the votes onto the 40 most deserving questions.

H

On Mar 14, 2012, at 5:26 AM, Tomáš Fejfar wrote:

I missed MWOP's  How can I propose new functionality for the framework? 

2012/3/14 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>

Yes, but look at the question selection - 97% of them are stackexchange on-topic. The only two obvious offtopic are those I posted :)) It seems like a good idea to add such questions to the list to show that many of ZF related questions are SE offtopic. 

2012/3/13 Jurian Sluiman <[hidden email]>

Op 13 mrt. 2012 21:57 schreef "Tomáš Fejfar" <[hidden email]> het volgende:

>
> Because you can ask a ton of questions that are about drupal and will be marked as offtopic on StackOverflow. Like "How do I create a subpage for a page in Drupal" or "What are good texts for html_description in Drupal", etc.

Please bear in mind you'll get the same type of  question with the to-be-created module ecosystem for zf2. I see this q&a for all kind of  questions, not all of them will be programming (and thus for SO) related.
--
Jurian Sluiman

[Artur Bodera]

Thank you all!

http://bit.ly/ZF_QA

Over 150 people have commited to this proposal by writing almost 70 example questions and up-voting exiting ones. 

This means, we've reached Second Stage of our StackExchange proposal. This stage is called "commitment" - here we sign a petition to open the site. You have to use your real name as a verification, but I'm sure this won't scare you.

So hop in http://bit.ly/ZF_QA  and click [COMMIT]

Best regards.

Arthur

--
      __
     /.)\   [phone]
     \(./   [hidden email]

2012/3/16 Anthony Shireman <[hidden email]>

Greetings!

For those of you who aren't watching closely, there's only a few more votes needed to meet the question requirements to move the proposal to the next step. Vote up the lower ranking questions and we'll move on. Thanks everybody!


Tony

2012/3/14 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>

>  going back in and checking the questions I had voted on. If they had more than 10 up-votes, I removed my up-vote and found another question I thought was appropriate and voted it up. 

That's a very clever thing to do. I'll try to do that too... 

2012/3/14 H Glenn Hatfield <[hidden email]>

I don't know if it's the right way to do it or not, but I've been going back in and checking the questions I had voted on. If they had more than 10 up-votes, I removed my up-vote and found another question I thought was appropriate and voted it up. We technically have enough people registered to make it to the next round if none of the questions go above 10 up-votes and we are able to consolidate the votes onto the 40 most deserving questions.

H

On Mar 14, 2012, at 5:26 AM, Tomáš Fejfar wrote:

I missed MWOP's  How can I propose new functionality for the framework? 

2012/3/14 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>

Yes, but look at the question selection - 97% of them are stackexchange on-topic. The only two obvious offtopic are those I posted :)) It seems like a good idea to add such questions to the list to show that many of ZF related questions are SE offtopic. 

2012/3/13 Jurian Sluiman <[hidden email]>

Op 13 mrt. 2012 21:57 schreef "Tomáš Fejfar" <[hidden email]> het volgende:

>
> Because you can ask a ton of questions that are about drupal and will be marked as offtopic on StackOverflow. Like "How do I create a subpage for a page in Drupal" or "What are good texts for html_description in Drupal", etc.

Please bear in mind you'll get the same type of  question with the to-be-created module ecosystem for zf2. I see this q&a for all kind of  questions, not all of them will be programming (and thus for SO) related.
--
Jurian Sluiman

[Tomáš Fejfar]

It¨s really good that we managed to get to this phase. I already commited and we're on 20% right now. It's going really fast! :) GJ!

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Artur Bodera <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you all!

http://bit.ly/ZF_QA

Over 150 people have commited to this proposal by writing almost 70 example questions and up-voting exiting ones. 

This means, we've reached Second Stage of our StackExchange proposal. This stage is called "commitment" - here we sign a petition to open the site. You have to use your real name as a verification, but I'm sure this won't scare you.

So hop in http://bit.ly/ZF_QA  and click [COMMIT]

Best regards.

Arthur

--
      __
     /.)\   <a href="tel:%2B48%20695%20600%20936" value="[phone]" target="_blank">[phone]
     \(./   [hidden email]

2012/3/16 Anthony Shireman <[hidden email]>

Greetings!

For those of you who aren't watching closely, there's only a few more votes needed to meet the question requirements to move the proposal to the next step. Vote up the lower ranking questions and we'll move on. Thanks everybody!


Tony

2012/3/14 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>

>  going back in and checking the questions I had voted on. If they had more than 10 up-votes, I removed my up-vote and found another question I thought was appropriate and voted it up. 

That's a very clever thing to do. I'll try to do that too... 

2012/3/14 H Glenn Hatfield <[hidden email]>

I don't know if it's the right way to do it or not, but I've been going back in and checking the questions I had voted on. If they had more than 10 up-votes, I removed my up-vote and found another question I thought was appropriate and voted it up. We technically have enough people registered to make it to the next round if none of the questions go above 10 up-votes and we are able to consolidate the votes onto the 40 most deserving questions.

H

On Mar 14, 2012, at 5:26 AM, Tomáš Fejfar wrote:

I missed MWOP's  How can I propose new functionality for the framework? 

2012/3/14 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>

Yes, but look at the question selection - 97% of them are stackexchange on-topic. The only two obvious offtopic are those I posted :)) It seems like a good idea to add such questions to the list to show that many of ZF related questions are SE offtopic. 

2012/3/13 Jurian Sluiman <[hidden email]>

Op 13 mrt. 2012 21:57 schreef "Tomáš Fejfar" <[hidden email]> het volgende:

>
> Because you can ask a ton of questions that are about drupal and will be marked as offtopic on StackOverflow. Like "How do I create a subpage for a page in Drupal" or "What are good texts for html_description in Drupal", etc.

Please bear in mind you'll get the same type of  question with the to-be-created module ecosystem for zf2. I see this q&a for all kind of  questions, not all of them will be programming (and thus for SO) related.
--
Jurian Sluiman

[Ralf Eggert]

Just read on the ZF proposal:

> closed as duplicate of Stack Overflow by Robert Cartaino♦ 24 mins ago
>
> This proposal would tend to drain audience from an existing Stack
> Exchange site.

Any comments?

Best regards,

Ralf

[Anthony Shireman]

Hey everybody, if you haven't heard the SE proposal has been closed again. Please view MWOP's comment here:
http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4573/why-has-a-proposal-for-zend-framework-been-closed/4581#comment8855_4581
and upvote the comment if you please. I'd like to show as much community support for Matthew's reasoning as possible.

Regards,



Tony

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Anthony Shireman <[hidden email]> wrote:

All proposals drain users from the main SO site... but that's the point. Increase the value of the signal by reducing the unneeded noise. Bleh.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 7:30 AM, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:

Just read on the ZF proposal:

> closed as duplicate of Stack Overflow by Robert Cartaino♦ 24 mins ago
>
> This proposal would tend to drain audience from an existing Stack
> Exchange site.

Any comments?

Best regards,

Ralf

[Artur Bodera]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Anthony Shireman <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hey everybody, if you haven't heard the SE proposal has been closed again. Please view MWOP's comment here:
http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4573/why-has-a-proposal-for-zend-framework-been-closed/4581#comment8855_4581
and upvote the comment if you please. I'd like to show as much community support for Matthew's reasoning as possible.

I've started a new discussion and asked moderator for more info, reiterating over our arguments.

http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4667/whys-zend-framework-proposal-closed-at-2nd-day-of-commit 


-- 
      __
     /.)\   [phone]
     \(./   [hidden email]

 

[Tim Fountain]

On 20 March 2012 15:40, Artur Bodera <[hidden email]> wrote:

I've started a new discussion and asked moderator for more info, reiterating over our arguments.

http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4667/whys-zend-framework-proposal-closed-at-2nd-day-of-commit 

I don't really think we should push the issue here. It seems like their rule of thumb is that CMSes are okay for a dedicated site (Wordpress, Drupal etc.), since some of the questions will relate to usage; but frameworks do not, since the vast majority of questions will fall under the umbrella of what is suitable for stackoverflow. Assuming the symfony 2 proposal gets rejected for the same reason as the ZF one, then I don't think there's really a double standard. Nothing in your followup discussion really contradicts the reason they've given for closing the proposal, so all they're going to do is reiterate the same response.

--
Tim Fountain
http://tfountain.co.uk/

[Marco Pivetta (Ocramius)]

Quite disappointing. Can't really understand the reasons behind this approach of Robert :(

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius     

http://marco-pivetta.com    

On 20 March 2012 16:40, Artur Bodera <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Anthony Shireman <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hey everybody, if you haven't heard the SE proposal has been closed again. Please view MWOP's comment here:
http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4573/why-has-a-proposal-for-zend-framework-been-closed/4581#comment8855_4581
and upvote the comment if you please. I'd like to show as much community support for Matthew's reasoning as possible.

I've started a new discussion and asked moderator for more info, reiterating over our arguments.

http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4667/whys-zend-framework-proposal-closed-at-2nd-day-of-commit 

-- 
      __
     /.)\   <a href="tel:%2B48%20695%20600%20936" value="[phone]" target="_blank">[phone]
     \(./   [hidden email]

 

[Tomáš Fejfar]

I see their point a little. They have their site and can do whatever they want with it! They want to condense each stackexchange site for maxximum impact. Now Stackoverflow is THE site for any programming question  you may have. If they let the communities create their own SOs, then it would be "for any programming question except: symfony, zf, wordpress, cakephp, rails and django", which is not that sexy :) 

Sadly, I don't see much chance getting this through. StackExchange have all the aces in their hands. We should settle for sponsored tag with icon and let this rot for a while. Maybe if there will be some more offtopic questions aboout ZF2, we may have a chance to reopen the proposal. 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Marco Pivetta <[hidden email]> wrote:

Quite disappointing. Can't really understand the reasons behind this approach of Robert :(

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius     

http://marco-pivetta.com    

On 20 March 2012 16:40, Artur Bodera <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Anthony Shireman <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hey everybody, if you haven't heard the SE proposal has been closed again. Please view MWOP's comment here:
http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4573/why-has-a-proposal-for-zend-framework-been-closed/4581#comment8855_4581
and upvote the comment if you please. I'd like to show as much community support for Matthew's reasoning as possible.

I've started a new discussion and asked moderator for more info, reiterating over our arguments.

http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4667/whys-zend-framework-proposal-closed-at-2nd-day-of-commit 

-- 
      __
     /.)\   <a href="tel:%2B48%20695%20600%20936" value="[phone]" target="_blank">[phone]
     \(./   [hidden email]

 

[mattcockayne]

We might find that when ZF2 gets release and more and more questions are being asked about individual modules they may reconsider as you could argue (perhaps rather tenuously) that someone using a bunch of pre-built modules is no different than using plugins or extensions in a CMS or other such prebuilt app.

In the end its their toy and they don't want us to play with it, and there isn't much we can do if they decide to dig their heels in.

Providing the same attitude is taken for other frameworks then I don't think its worth the fuss right now 

I'm inclined to say that it would be easier to knock up our own (perhaps only temporary) site in order to prove the need for it, as I don't think we should be having to "sponsor" a tag unless they are willing to let us sponsor it for free.

Matt Cockayne

2012/3/20 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>

I see their point a little. They have their site and can do whatever they want with it! They want to condense each stackexchange site for maxximum impact. Now Stackoverflow is THE site for any programming question  you may have. If they let the communities create their own SOs, then it would be "for any programming question except: symfony, zf, wordpress, cakephp, rails and django", which is not that sexy :) 

Sadly, I don't see much chance getting this through. StackExchange have all the aces in their hands. We should settle for sponsored tag with icon and let this rot for a while. Maybe if there will be some more offtopic questions aboout ZF2, we may have a chance to reopen the proposal. 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Marco Pivetta <[hidden email]> wrote:

Quite disappointing. Can't really understand the reasons behind this approach of Robert :(

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius     

http://marco-pivetta.com    

On 20 March 2012 16:40, Artur Bodera <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Anthony Shireman <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hey everybody, if you haven't heard the SE proposal has been closed again. Please view MWOP's comment here:
http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4573/why-has-a-proposal-for-zend-framework-been-closed/4581#comment8855_4581
and upvote the comment if you please. I'd like to show as much community support for Matthew's reasoning as possible.

I've started a new discussion and asked moderator for more info, reiterating over our arguments.

http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4667/whys-zend-framework-proposal-closed-at-2nd-day-of-commit 

-- 
      __
     /.)\   <a href="tel:%2B48%20695%20600%20936" value="[phone]" target="_blank">[phone]
     \(./   [hidden email]

 

--
Matt Cockayne

Zucchi ! Digital Perfection

Managing Director

e: [hidden email]

t: [phone]

m: [phone]

w: zucchi.co.uk

a: Trident One / Styal Rd / Manchester / M22 5XP

sk: matt.cockayne

tw: @mattcockayne

in: matthewcockayne

Click for Email Disclaimer

[weierophinney]

-- Matt Cockayne <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Tuesday, 20 March 2012, 07:23 PM +0000):
> We might find that when ZF2 gets release and more and more questions are being
> asked about individual modules they may reconsider as you could argue (perhaps
> rather tenuously) that someone using a bunch of pre-built modules is no
> different than using plugins or extensions in a CMS or other such prebuilt app.
>
> In the end its their toy and they don't want us to play with it, and there
> isn't much we can do if they decide to dig their heels in.

Well, they _do_ want us to play with it. Inside StackOverflow.

> Providing the same attitude is taken for other frameworks then I don't think
> its worth the fuss right now
>
> I'm inclined to say that it would be easier to knock up our own (perhaps only
> temporary) site in order to prove the need for it, as I don't think we should
> be having to "sponsor" a tag unless they are willing to let us sponsor it for
> free.

I'll be looking into this, actually.

> Matt Cockayne
>
>
>
> 2012/3/20 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>
>
>     I see their point a little. They have their site and can do whatever they
>     want with it! They want to condense each stackexchange site for maxximum
>     impact. Now Stackoverflow is THE site for any programming question  you may
>     have. If they let the communities create their own SOs, then it would be
>     "for any programming question except: symfony, zf, wordpress, cakephp,
>     rails and django", which is not that sexy :)
>
>     Sadly, I don't see much chance getting this through. StackExchange have all
>     the aces in their hands. We should settle for sponsored tag with icon and
>     let this rot for a while. Maybe if there will be some more offtopic
>     questions aboout ZF2, we may have a chance to reopen the proposal.
>
>     On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Marco Pivetta <[hidden email]>
>     wrote:
>
>         Quite disappointing. Can't really understand the reasons behind this
>         approach of Robert :(
>
>         Marco Pivetta
>
>         http://twitter.com/Ocramius     
>
>         http://marco-pivetta.com   
>
>         On 20 March 2012 16:40, Artur Bodera <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>             On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Anthony Shireman <
>             [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>                 Hey everybody, if you haven't heard the SE proposal has been
>                 closed again. Please view MWOP's comment here:
>                 http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4573/
>                 why-has-a-proposal-for-zend-framework-been-closed/4581#
>                 comment8855_4581
>                 and upvote the comment if you please. I'd like to show as much
>                 community support for Matthew's reasoning as possible.
>
>
>
>             I've started a new discussion and asked moderator for more info,
>             reiterating over our arguments.
>
>             http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4667/
>             whys-zend-framework-proposal-closed-at-2nd-day-of-commit
>
>
>
>             --
>                   __
>                  /.)\   [phone]
>                  \(./   [hidden email]
>
>              
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Cockayne
>
> Zucchi ! Digital Perfection
> Managing Director
>
> e: [hidden email]
> t: [phone]
> m: [phone]
> w: zucchi.co.uk
> a: Trident One / Styal Rd / Manchester / M22 5XP
>
> sk: matt.cockayne
> tw: @mattcockayne
> in: matthewcockayne
>
> Click for Email Disclaimer
>

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc

[Tomáš Fejfar]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

-- Matt Cockayne <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Tuesday, 20 March 2012, 07:23 PM +0000):

> We might find that when ZF2 gets release and more and more questions are being
> asked about individual modules they may reconsider as you could argue (perhaps
> rather tenuously) that someone using a bunch of pre-built modules is no
> different than using plugins or extensions in a CMS or other such prebuilt app.
>
> In the end its their toy and they don't want us to play with it, and there
> isn't much we can do if they decide to dig their heels in.

Well, they _do_ want us to play with it. Inside StackOverflow.

> Providing the same attitude is taken for other frameworks then I don't think
> its worth the fuss right now
>
> I'm inclined to say that it would be easier to knock up our own (perhaps only
> temporary) site in order to prove the need for it, as I don't think we should
> be having to "sponsor" a tag unless they are willing to let us sponsor it for
> free.

I'll be looking into this, actually.

IMO it's really bad idea. Only option I would consider is to let the community create something under your (and your gang :)) supervision. There is a lot of important problems that should be adressed by the core developers rather than creating new StackOverflow. 

Let's solve the problem later, when it's present and real, rather then doing premature optimalization of the SO-situation :)

> Matt Cockayne
>
>
>
> 2012/3/20 Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]>
>
>     I see their point a little. They have their site and can do whatever they
>     want with it! They want to condense each stackexchange site for maxximum
>     impact. Now Stackoverflow is THE site for any programming question  you may
>     have. If they let the communities create their own SOs, then it would be
>     "for any programming question except: symfony, zf, wordpress, cakephp,
>     rails and django", which is not that sexy :)
>
>     Sadly, I don't see much chance getting this through. StackExchange have all
>     the aces in their hands. We should settle for sponsored tag with icon and
>     let this rot for a while. Maybe if there will be some more offtopic
>     questions aboout ZF2, we may have a chance to reopen the proposal.
>
>     On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Marco Pivetta <[hidden email]>
>     wrote:
>
>         Quite disappointing. Can't really understand the reasons behind this
>         approach of Robert :(
>
>         Marco Pivetta
>
>         http://twitter.com/Ocramius
>
>         http://marco-pivetta.com
>
>         On 20 March 2012 16:40, Artur Bodera <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>             On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Anthony Shireman <
>             [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>                 Hey everybody, if you haven't heard the SE proposal has been
>                 closed again. Please view MWOP's comment here:
>                 http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4573/
>                 why-has-a-proposal-for-zend-framework-been-closed/4581#
>                 comment8855_4581
>                 and upvote the comment if you please. I'd like to show as much
>                 community support for Matthew's reasoning as possible.
>
>
>
>             I've started a new discussion and asked moderator for more info,
>             reiterating over our arguments.
>
>             http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/4667/
>             whys-zend-framework-proposal-closed-at-2nd-day-of-commit
>
>
>
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>
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--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc

[Artur Bodera]

Thank you all for your support and input. There have been some good arguments from proponents and we've also seen a few opponents of the idea (not related to SE staff). Also thank you for your high culture, keeping the dialog clean during this debate.

A brief summary:

2 weeks ago, our proposal has been closed as duplicate 20 minutes after opening. It has been reopened about a week ago after my attempts to appeal to area51 staff and moderator. 

 This proposal goes squarely and egregiously against our policy of duplicating content. All I can do is re-open the proposal as you asked and let the Definition proceed. If my assertion is correct, I will be forced to close this proposal unceremoniously. Users are typically indignant of having their time wasted when we could have taken action earlier, but your resolve seems steadfast that you are not wasting user community's time and efforts. I hope it works out. Reopened. [ Robert Cartaino ]

2 days ago, the proposal has been closed again by the same moderator. We've learned from moderator Robert, that we have been let this far only to observe if example questions were out of scope of Stack Overflow website.

We can read at http://stackoverflow.com/about:

Stack Overflow is a programming Q & A site that’s free
We don’t run Stack Overflow. You do. Stack Overflow is collaboratively built and maintained by your fellow programmers. 

More info can be found at http://stackoverflow.com/faq

We feel the best Stack Overflow questions have a bit of source code in them, but if your question generally covers …
* a specific programming problem
* a software algorithm
* software tools commonly used by programmers
* practical, answerable problems that are unique to the programming profession
… then you’re in the right place to ask your question!

Stack Overflow is a "general programming Q&A website" with a broad scope of topics, governed by a system of #tags. This definition has been repeated several times now. 

Because Zend Framework is a  php _programming_ framework and tool, it fits in that profile. We have been told that SO website serves and helps ZF Community pretty well. This is backed by the number of questions asked on SO (found with #zend-framework tag) and reportedly an opinion of some group of anonymous developers. 

Stack Overflow is the largest, highest quality, best-supported developer network on the Internet, precisely because we fight not to create isolated sub-communities where the bigger whole does a better job. There is simply no evidence that Zend developers are not receiving excellent support on our current network. [Robert Cartaino]

We have observed a significant number of similar, concurrent proposals at Area51 including: Symfony 2, Django, Joomla!, Windows Phone, Yii Framework, Magento. It has not been confirmed nor denied if those will be closed as well. 

It has been repeated by proponents several times that it seems hurtful to ZF community because those other proposals are:

    1. Similar in nature - they overlap other existing stack exchange sites.

    2. Are all open - never been closed by a moderator.

    3. Some are in hiatus for months!

    4. Some reached commit phase and are happily heading for beta.

It is worth noting, that our proposal has also invited Stack Exchange founder and CEO, Joel Spolsky, to leave a comment:

Briefly, all of the Stack Exchange sites are there because much (or all) of their content is considered off-topic on stackoverflow.com. Not all Wordpress-related questions are programming questions. Code reviews are not welcome at all on stackoverflow.com. CS Theory is quite unrelated to programming. Programmers was set up precisely for the kind of questions that SO was not good at. Etc. In the case of Zend Framework those questions are 100% on-topic and welcome on StackOverflow.com – Joel Spolsky

This repeats the argument of the moderator, that regardless of the enthusiasm of our community (acknowledged by a very fast incoming commitment rate), Zend Framework SE site is not welcomed on Stack Exchange as it fits into the profile of, and will draw traffic from Stack Overflow website. 

The idea that you want to separate out your developers for a Zend-focused version of Stack Overflow… we simply do not do that. [Robert Cartaino]

There's also the case of Wordpress, Drupal, Sharepoint dedicated Stack Exchange sites - all are alive and well. There has been explanations for that as well. The rationale behind their existence is that there is a visible end-user, non-programming side to these projects (i.e. one can install Drupal or Wordpress via an installer, then use admin panel for operating the site) - thus having some questions out of SO scope. 

Our secondary arguments were: the level of Zend Framework complexity, huge user-base, new major version coming soon and a possibility of modules infrastructure growing exponentially. Unfortunately these do not fit into the reasoning of SE staff, nor can we present a clickity clack end-user ZF GUI that would make a point of this being out of "general programming scope". 

We have been given the following options:

  1. Just use StackOverflow - tag questions with #zend-framework, educate users to ask question there. Opponents argue that this helps with nothing and doesn't address any of the arguments included in the proposal.

  2. Sponsor a tag - similar to [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/android]. The price has not been determined yet, but opponents are dismissing this idea as not addressing all arguments and having less flexibility than dedicated site.

  3. Buy ads - I don't fully understand that option, nor do we know the pricing, but I believe the goal would be to promote either main ZF site or the #zend-framework tag on SO

ZF community promptly proposed 4th option:

  4. Open a community-maintained Zend Framework Q&A site in disconnect from StackExchange and endorse it to all end-users and contributors.

This has prompted a response from opponents:

You will miss a large community of Zend Framework know-how if you move from Stack Overflow. 

 

There are many people in the PHP chat channel there who have stated that they won't follow the zf.stackexchange site, but they WILL follow the zf label on Stack Overflow. The reason is that they have lives. They can't afford to follow all of the stackexchange sites, but they can follow tags on Stack Overflow. It will be your loss. 

Sponsor a tag instead. [Levi Morrison]

  

You can read the whole updated discussion here: 

    http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/q/4667/53543

-- 
      __
     /.)\   <a href="tel:%2B48%20695%20600%20936" value="[phone]" target="_blank">[phone]
     \(./   [hidden email]

[Tomáš Fejfar]

Thanks for the summary and the effort you spearheaded. 

I have to agree, again, with the opponents of the "separate-SO-clone" idea. There are much more important stuff to do around ZF2. SO worked fine. And it will work fine. All we need is to focus and educate the community to vote answers (and more importantly quality QUESTIONS) up and to answer questions there rather then on mailing list. Prefferably make it a rule and make everyone use SO. Division of effort between blogs, mailing list, irc, forums and stackoverflow is the main problem with support now. 

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Artur Bodera <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you all for your support and input. There have been some good arguments from proponents and we've also seen a few opponents of the idea (not related to SE staff). Also thank you for your high culture, keeping the dialog clean during this debate.

A brief summary:

2 weeks ago, our proposal has been closed as duplicate 20 minutes after opening. It has been reopened about a week ago after my attempts to appeal to area51 staff and moderator. 

 This proposal goes squarely and egregiously against our policy of duplicating content. All I can do is re-open the proposal as you asked and let the Definition proceed. If my assertion is correct, I will be forced to close this proposal unceremoniously. Users are typically indignant of having their time wasted when we could have taken action earlier, but your resolve seems steadfast that you are not wasting user community's time and efforts. I hope it works out. Reopened. [ Robert Cartaino ]

2 days ago, the proposal has been closed again by the same moderator. We've learned from moderator Robert, that we have been let this far only to observe if example questions were out of scope of Stack Overflow website.

We can read at http://stackoverflow.com/about:

Stack Overflow is a programming Q & A site that’s free
We don’t run Stack Overflow. You do. Stack Overflow is collaboratively built and maintained by your fellow programmers. 

More info can be found at http://stackoverflow.com/faq

We feel the best Stack Overflow questions have a bit of source code in them, but if your question generally covers …
* a specific programming problem
* a software algorithm
* software tools commonly used by programmers
* practical, answerable problems that are unique to the programming profession
… then you’re in the right place to ask your question!

Stack Overflow is a "general programming Q&A website" with a broad scope of topics, governed by a system of #tags. This definition has been repeated several times now. 

Because Zend Framework is a  php _programming_ framework and tool, it fits in that profile. We have been told that SO website serves and helps ZF Community pretty well. This is backed by the number of questions asked on SO (found with #zend-framework tag) and reportedly an opinion of some group of anonymous developers. 

Stack Overflow is the largest, highest quality, best-supported developer network on the Internet, precisely because we fight not to create isolated sub-communities where the bigger whole does a better job. There is simply no evidence that Zend developers are not receiving excellent support on our current network. [Robert Cartaino]

We have observed a significant number of similar, concurrent proposals at Area51 including: Symfony 2, Django, Joomla!, Windows Phone, Yii Framework, Magento. It has not been confirmed nor denied if those will be closed as well. 

It has been repeated by proponents several times that it seems hurtful to ZF community because those other proposals are:

    1. Similar in nature - they overlap other existing stack exchange sites.

    2. Are all open - never been closed by a moderator.

    3. Some are in hiatus for months!

    4. Some reached commit phase and are happily heading for beta.

It is worth noting, that our proposal has also invited Stack Exchange founder and CEO, Joel Spolsky, to leave a comment:

Briefly, all of the Stack Exchange sites are there because much (or all) of their content is considered off-topic on stackoverflow.com. Not all Wordpress-related questions are programming questions. Code reviews are not welcome at all on stackoverflow.com. CS Theory is quite unrelated to programming. Programmers was set up precisely for the kind of questions that SO was not good at. Etc. In the case of Zend Framework those questions are 100% on-topic and welcome on StackOverflow.com – Joel Spolsky

This repeats the argument of the moderator, that regardless of the enthusiasm of our community (acknowledged by a very fast incoming commitment rate), Zend Framework SE site is not welcomed on Stack Exchange as it fits into the profile of, and will draw traffic from Stack Overflow website. 

The idea that you want to separate out your developers for a Zend-focused version of Stack Overflow… we simply do not do that. [Robert Cartaino]

There's also the case of Wordpress, Drupal, Sharepoint dedicated Stack Exchange sites - all are alive and well. There has been explanations for that as well. The rationale behind their existence is that there is a visible end-user, non-programming side to these projects (i.e. one can install Drupal or Wordpress via an installer, then use admin panel for operating the site) - thus having some questions out of SO scope. 

Our secondary arguments were: the level of Zend Framework complexity, huge user-base, new major version coming soon and a possibility of modules infrastructure growing exponentially. Unfortunately these do not fit into the reasoning of SE staff, nor can we present a clickity clack end-user ZF GUI that would make a point of this being out of "general programming scope". 

We have been given the following options:

  1. Just use StackOverflow - tag questions with #zend-framework, educate users to ask question there. Opponents argue that this helps with nothing and doesn't address any of the arguments included in the proposal.

  2. Sponsor a tag - similar to [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/android]. The price has not been determined yet, but opponents are dismissing this idea as not addressing all arguments and having less flexibility than dedicated site.

  3. Buy ads - I don't fully understand that option, nor do we know the pricing, but I believe the goal would be to promote either main ZF site or the #zend-framework tag on SO

ZF community promptly proposed 4th option:

  4. Open a community-maintained Zend Framework Q&A site in disconnect from StackExchange and endorse it to all end-users and contributors.

This has prompted a response from opponents:

You will miss a large community of Zend Framework know-how if you move from Stack Overflow. 

 

There are many people in the PHP chat channel there who have stated that they won't follow the zf.stackexchange site, but they WILL follow the zf label on Stack Overflow. The reason is that they have lives. They can't afford to follow all of the stackexchange sites, but they can follow tags on Stack Overflow. It will be your loss. 

Sponsor a tag instead. [Levi Morrison]

  

You can read the whole updated discussion here: 

    http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/q/4667/53543

-- 
      __
     /.)\   <a href="tel:%2B48%20695%20600%20936" value="[phone]" target="_blank">[phone]
     \(./   [hidden email]

[gargoyle-3]

I'm with SO on this one.

If I search for a generic coding problem/solution on SO then I am not really that bothered which framework the solution comes from, and I prefer to do it in one place. (Which I often choose to do on SO to weed out some of the crap that google will return)

If I am looking for a ZF specific result and it doesn't come up, I could probably use one of the other examples to make a working ZF solution.

I'm also against number 4 below. It will indeed cause more separation in the community. If we all start living in a ZF bubble, then we'll lose out on the opportunities to learn from others. There are some extremely talented people working on ZF (and I thank them all for that), but they are not "the best of the best" at everything. There is always something to be learned from others outside the group.

Just my 2p worth!

Paul

On 22 Mar 2012, at 12:19, Tomáš Fejfar wrote:

Thanks for the summary and the effort you spearheaded. 

I have to agree, again, with the opponents of the "separate-SO-clone" idea. There are much more important stuff to do around ZF2. SO worked fine. And it will work fine. All we need is to focus and educate the community to vote answers (and more importantly quality QUESTIONS) up and to answer questions there rather then on mailing list. Prefferably make it a rule and make everyone use SO. Division of effort between blogs, mailing list, irc, forums and stackoverflow is the main problem with support now. 

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Artur Bodera <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you all for your support and input. There have been some good arguments from proponents and we've also seen a few opponents of the idea (not related to SE staff). Also thank you for your high culture, keeping the dialog clean during this debate.

A brief summary:

2 weeks ago, our proposal has been closed as duplicate 20 minutes after opening. It has been reopened about a week ago after my attempts to appeal to area51 staff and moderator. 

 This proposal goes squarely and egregiously against our policy of duplicating content. All I can do is re-open the proposal as you asked and let the Definition proceed. If my assertion is correct, I will be forced to close this proposal unceremoniously. Users are typically indignant of having their time wasted when we could have taken action earlier, but your resolve seems steadfast that you are not wasting user community's time and efforts. I hope it works out. Reopened. [ Robert Cartaino ]

2 days ago, the proposal has been closed again by the same moderator. We've learned from moderator Robert, that we have been let this far only to observe if example questions were out of scope of Stack Overflow website.

We can read at http://stackoverflow.com/about:

Stack Overflow is a programming Q & A site that’s free
We don’t run Stack Overflow. You do. Stack Overflow is collaboratively built and maintained by your fellow programmers. 

More info can be found at http://stackoverflow.com/faq

We feel the best Stack Overflow questions have a bit of source code in them, but if your question generally covers …
* a specific programming problem
* a software algorithm
* software tools commonly used by programmers
* practical, answerable problems that are unique to the programming profession
… then you’re in the right place to ask your question!

Stack Overflow is a "general programming Q&A website" with a broad scope of topics, governed by a system of #tags. This definition has been repeated several times now. 

Because Zend Framework is a  php _programming_ framework and tool, it fits in that profile. We have been told that SO website serves and helps ZF Community pretty well. This is backed by the number of questions asked on SO (found with #zend-framework tag) and reportedly an opinion of some group of anonymous developers. 

Stack Overflow is the largest, highest quality, best-supported developer network on the Internet, precisely because we fight not to create isolated sub-communities where the bigger whole does a better job. There is simply no evidence that Zend developers are not receiving excellent support on our current network. [Robert Cartaino]

We have observed a significant number of similar, concurrent proposals at Area51 including: Symfony 2, Django, Joomla!, Windows Phone, Yii Framework, Magento. It has not been confirmed nor denied if those will be closed as well. 

It has been repeated by proponents several times that it seems hurtful to ZF community because those other proposals are:

    1. Similar in nature - they overlap other existing stack exchange sites.

    2. Are all open - never been closed by a moderator.

    3. Some are in hiatus for months!

    4. Some reached commit phase and are happily heading for beta.

It is worth noting, that our proposal has also invited Stack Exchange founder and CEO, Joel Spolsky, to leave a comment:

Briefly, all of the Stack Exchange sites are there because much (or all) of their content is considered off-topic on stackoverflow.com. Not all Wordpress-related questions are programming questions. Code reviews are not welcome at all on stackoverflow.com. CS Theory is quite unrelated to programming. Programmers was set up precisely for the kind of questions that SO was not good at. Etc. In the case of Zend Framework those questions are 100% on-topic and welcome on StackOverflow.com – Joel Spolsky

This repeats the argument of the moderator, that regardless of the enthusiasm of our community (acknowledged by a very fast incoming commitment rate), Zend Framework SE site is not welcomed on Stack Exchange as it fits into the profile of, and will draw traffic from Stack Overflow website. 

The idea that you want to separate out your developers for a Zend-focused version of Stack Overflow… we simply do not do that. [Robert Cartaino]

There's also the case of Wordpress, Drupal, Sharepoint dedicated Stack Exchange sites - all are alive and well. There has been explanations for that as well. The rationale behind their existence is that there is a visible end-user, non-programming side to these projects (i.e. one can install Drupal or Wordpress via an installer, then use admin panel for operating the site) - thus having some questions out of SO scope. 

Our secondary arguments were: the level of Zend Framework complexity, huge user-base, new major version coming soon and a possibility of modules infrastructure growing exponentially. Unfortunately these do not fit into the reasoning of SE staff, nor can we present a clickity clack end-user ZF GUI that would make a point of this being out of "general programming scope". 

We have been given the following options:

  1. Just use StackOverflow - tag questions with #zend-framework, educate users to ask question there. Opponents argue that this helps with nothing and doesn't address any of the arguments included in the proposal.

  2. Sponsor a tag - similar to [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/android]. The price has not been determined yet, but opponents are dismissing this idea as not addressing all arguments and having less flexibility than dedicated site.

  3. Buy ads - I don't fully understand that option, nor do we know the pricing, but I believe the goal would be to promote either main ZF site or the #zend-framework tag on SO

ZF community promptly proposed 4th option:

  4. Open a community-maintained Zend Framework Q&A site in disconnect from StackExchange and endorse it to all end-users and contributors.

This has prompted a response from opponents:

You will miss a large community of Zend Framework know-how if you move from Stack Overflow. 

 

There are many people in the PHP chat channel there who have stated that they won't follow the zf.stackexchange site, but they WILL follow the zf label on Stack Overflow. The reason is that they have lives. They can't afford to follow all of the stackexchange sites, but they can follow tags on Stack Overflow. It will be your loss. 

Sponsor a tag instead. [Levi Morrison]

  

You can read the whole updated discussion here: 

    http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/q/4667/53543

-- 
      __
     /.)\   <a href="tel:%2B48%20695%20600%20936" value="[phone]" target="_blank">[phone]
     \(./   [hidden email]

[H Glenn Hatfield]

On Mar 22, 2012, at 7:27 AM, Paul Court wrote:
> I'm also against number 4 below. It will indeed cause more separation in the community. If we all start living in a ZF bubble, then we'll lose out on the opportunities to learn from others. There are some extremely talented people working on ZF (and I thank them all for that), but they are not "the best of the best" at everything. There is always something to be learned from others outside the group.

I think this is a great point, but I don't think it applies in this case. From what I've seen from the people working on ZF, none of them live in a bubble. Most of them are pulling in good ideas that they find in other places. If they were living in a bubble, ZF2 would look so much more like ZF1 than it does.

I wish StackExchange were just consistent with what they say in their Area51 FAQ. They espouse the community process, and try to downplay any possible heavy-handedness from the SE organization. This is the opposite of what I have seen in this case. A vocal part of the ZF community, those who support it and those who use it, have shown considerable interest in using an SE site and SE have unilaterally quashed it. I understand that in the end it is their site and they may do with it as they please.

As for creating our own community, I think I am against that as well for now. I think we should try to use SO as they have suggested (not supporting a tag or paying for ads) and see how it works out. I think we will be able to show that there are enough questions considered off-topic that we can ask them to reconsider the proposal. Perhaps SO will end up being completely sufficient.


H Hatfield
[hidden email]

[Ralf Eggert]

Another suggestion:

>   4. Open a community-maintained Zend Framework Q&A site in disconnect from
> StackExchange and endorse it to all end-users and contributors.

5. Create a page on framework.zend.com which uses the API from SO/SE to
build a list with all questions for a group of tags we define to get a
quick overview what is new and encourage people to answer and post
questions on SO.

http://api.stackexchange.com/

For example:

http://api.stackexchange.com/docs/questions#order=desc&sort=creation&tagged=zend-framework&filter=default&site=stackoverflow&run=true

Best regards,

Ralf