ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

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ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

ThaDafinser
Hello together,

last report was: 2013-08-02 (~ 20 days)

first the numbers:
- 347 issues are open / 4655 are closed (75 closed since last report)
- 39 PR are open
- 49 issues are +10 months old
- 122 issues are older than 6 months (including 10 months old issues)
- 66 issues were not updated for minimum 6 months

When looking at the open issues, the number is growing slowly and looks fine.
Started with 336 then 343 and now 347 (when removing PRs,  308 issues are open)

A big PLUS is now that new issues are not labeled (thanks to the person who do this now).


Last time i included a Exception + DateTime report, this time i show some Zend\Db insights.

The Zend\Db extension is the biggest part of open issues and feature requests at all.
When search for Zend\Db in the issues list, you will find a result of ~65
(the number is not exactly, because of the search method)

So about 19% of all problems, requests and PRs are related to Zend\Db!
The number sounds high, but it's surely also the heaviest component in ZF2 and many issues are requests for new features.

When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.

Best regards
Martin Keckeis
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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Axel
Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

Here's what I've got so far: https://github.com/tux-rampage/rampage-php/tree/master/library/rampage/simpleorm

Basic theory:
- TableGateways are repositories
- An EntityManager aggregates them and a UnitOfWork instance
- Classes can annotate repositories with @Repository the UnitOfWork/EntityManager will use this to find the repository for an object.
- Repositories may aggregate other TableGatways to handle refereneces (this completely up to the developer)
- Data from objects is automatically extracted via a hydrator instance
- Additional TableGateway features provide automatic configuration of the hydrator instance by using the metadata, populating the last insert id, etc...
- Utilize database transactions if possible when flushing the UnitOfWork.

So you could do something like that:
$serviceManager->get('EntityManager')->persist($object)->flush();


Any thoughts? Worth to port it to a standalone ZF component? Suggestions are welcome.
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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Stefano Torresi
CONTENTS DELETED
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Del
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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Del
In reply to this post by Axel

Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution
that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you
want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better
than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for
something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write
their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire
life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let
someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you
really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better
than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great.
However if you are then there are more important problems for you to
solve, I'm sure of it.

On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

> Hi Everybody,
>
> Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:
>
>> *When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
>> like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*
>>
>
> Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
> the zf2 TableGateway classes.
> This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Spabby
*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

G


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:

Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.


On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:
Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.


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AW: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Marc Tempelmeier

Hi,

 

that´s a reason I simply don´t understand. You have tools which you use in your every day work.

Why do you want to use _other_ tools in simple projects and expand the complexity in what you have to learn?

I here this every day in my company, mostly when it goes to use zf in simple projects.

 

Jm2c

 

Marc

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 10:45
An: Del
Cc: Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

 

G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:


Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.



On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

 

 

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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Axel
In reply to this post by Spabby
I perfectly agree with Gary. Doctrine is great, but also a monster.
And it might not always be the right tool to solve a problem.

When a full fledged ORM is necessary I'd stick with Doctrine as well.
But sometimes you have to follow a db schema Doctrine can't handle (i.e.
Doctrine 2 cannot handle a primary key with multiple fields) in this
case you'll need something else. And sometimes I don't need and want the
bloated deps doctrine requires.

Telling a company that they have to reorganize their enterprise
databases to fit into doctrine is pretty ignorant, especially when you
have to incorporate with third party applications on that database.

Sometimes there is the need for something different.


Am 27.08.2013 10:44, schrieb Gary Hockin:
> *Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around
> Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I
> don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very
> simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db
> would have a place for me in this situation.
>
> G
>

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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Spabby
In reply to this post by Marc Tempelmeier
I can't agree. This sounds like you're using the same tool regardless of the job. Everything looks like a nail?

G


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

 

that´s a reason I simply don´t understand. You have tools which you use in your every day work.

Why do you want to use _other_ tools in simple projects and expand the complexity in what you have to learn?

I here this every day in my company, mostly when it goes to use zf in simple projects.

 

Jm2c

 

Marc

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 10:45
An: Del
Cc: Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

 

G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:


Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.



On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

 

 


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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

bakura
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
In reply to this post by Axel
Doctrine CAN handle primary key with multiple fields ;-).

----------------------------------------
Michaël Gallego

Tel. : 06-98-82-62-38





Le 27 août 2013 à 11:24, "Axel [via Zend Framework Community]" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

I perfectly agree with Gary. Doctrine is great, but also a monster.
And it might not always be the right tool to solve a problem.

When a full fledged ORM is necessary I'd stick with Doctrine as well.
But sometimes you have to follow a db schema Doctrine can't handle (i.e.
Doctrine 2 cannot handle a primary key with multiple fields) in this
case you'll need something else. And sometimes I don't need and want the
bloated deps doctrine requires.

Telling a company that they have to reorganize their enterprise
databases to fit into doctrine is pretty ignorant, especially when you
have to incorporate with third party applications on that database.

Sometimes there is the need for something different.


Am 27.08.2013 10:44, schrieb Gary Hockin:
> *Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around
> Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I
> don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very
> simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db
> would have a place for me in this situation.
>
> G
>




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AW: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Marc Tempelmeier
In reply to this post by Spabby

If i have a db (nail) and no txt file (screw), yes

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:20
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

I can't agree. This sounds like you're using the same tool regardless of the job. Everything looks like a nail?


G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

 

that´s a reason I simply don´t understand. You have tools which you use in your every day work.

Why do you want to use _other_ tools in simple projects and expand the complexity in what you have to learn?

I here this every day in my company, mostly when it goes to use zf in simple projects.

 

Jm2c

 

Marc

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 10:45
An: Del
Cc: Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

 

G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:


Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.



On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

 

 

 

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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Spabby
When all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a nail ;)


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

If i have a db (nail) and no txt file (screw), yes

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:20
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors


Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

I can't agree. This sounds like you're using the same tool regardless of the job. Everything looks like a nail?


G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

 

that´s a reason I simply don´t understand. You have tools which you use in your every day work.

Why do you want to use _other_ tools in simple projects and expand the complexity in what you have to learn?

I here this every day in my company, mostly when it goes to use zf in simple projects.

 

Jm2c

 

Marc

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 10:45
An: Del
Cc: Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

 

G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:


Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.



On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

 

 

 


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AW: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Marc Tempelmeier

That doesn´t even make sense L

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:45
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

When all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a nail ;)

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

If i have a db (nail) and no txt file (screw), yes

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:20
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors


Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

I can't agree. This sounds like you're using the same tool regardless of the job. Everything looks like a nail?


G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

 

that´s a reason I simply don´t understand. You have tools which you use in your every day work.

Why do you want to use _other_ tools in simple projects and expand the complexity in what you have to learn?

I here this every day in my company, mostly when it goes to use zf in simple projects.

 

Jm2c

 

Marc

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 10:45
An: Del
Cc: Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

 

G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:


Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.



On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

 

 

 

 

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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Spabby


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

That doesn´t even make sense L

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:45


An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

When all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a nail ;)

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

If i have a db (nail) and no txt file (screw), yes

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:20
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors


Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

I can't agree. This sounds like you're using the same tool regardless of the job. Everything looks like a nail?


G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

 

that´s a reason I simply don´t understand. You have tools which you use in your every day work.

Why do you want to use _other_ tools in simple projects and expand the complexity in what you have to learn?

I here this every day in my company, mostly when it goes to use zf in simple projects.

 

Jm2c

 

Marc

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 10:45
An: Del
Cc: Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

 

G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:


Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.



On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

 

 

 

 


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AW: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Marc Tempelmeier

I wish that this problem is that easy, but it isn´t.

The problem with your approach are mostly your coworkers or to be precise mine.

You have to educate them all if you wish to use multiple approaches for nearly the same thing.

And yes, here you have a nail and only a nail. The db can´t morph from a nail into a screw.

 

But let´s not dive into this here plz J

 

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:52
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

That doesn´t even make sense L

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:45


An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

When all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a nail ;)

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

If i have a db (nail) and no txt file (screw), yes

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:20
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors


Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

I can't agree. This sounds like you're using the same tool regardless of the job. Everything looks like a nail?


G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

 

that´s a reason I simply don´t understand. You have tools which you use in your every day work.

Why do you want to use _other_ tools in simple projects and expand the complexity in what you have to learn?

I here this every day in my company, mostly when it goes to use zf in simple projects.

 

Jm2c

 

Marc

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 10:45
An: Del
Cc: Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

 

G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:


Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.



On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Spabby
It is that easy. If you only use one tool for the job because that's what you know then you aren't always using the best tool for the job.


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I wish that this problem is that easy, but it isn´t.

The problem with your approach are mostly your coworkers or to be precise mine.

You have to educate them all if you wish to use multiple approaches for nearly the same thing.

And yes, here you have a nail and only a nail. The db can´t morph from a nail into a screw.

 

But let´s not dive into this here plz J

 

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:52


An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

That doesn´t even make sense L

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:45


An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

When all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a nail ;)

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

If i have a db (nail) and no txt file (screw), yes

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:20
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors


Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

I can't agree. This sounds like you're using the same tool regardless of the job. Everything looks like a nail?


G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

 

that´s a reason I simply don´t understand. You have tools which you use in your every day work.

Why do you want to use _other_ tools in simple projects and expand the complexity in what you have to learn?

I here this every day in my company, mostly when it goes to use zf in simple projects.

 

Jm2c

 

Marc

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 10:45
An: Del
Cc: Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

 

G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:


Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.



On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

 

 

 

 

 


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|

AW: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Marc Tempelmeier

Let´s just agree to disagree, thx

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 12:20
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

It is that easy. If you only use one tool for the job because that's what you know then you aren't always using the best tool for the job.

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I wish that this problem is that easy, but it isn´t.

The problem with your approach are mostly your coworkers or to be precise mine.

You have to educate them all if you wish to use multiple approaches for nearly the same thing.

And yes, here you have a nail and only a nail. The db can´t morph from a nail into a screw.

 

But let´s not dive into this here plz J

 

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:52


An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

That doesn´t even make sense L

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:45


An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

When all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a nail ;)

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

If i have a db (nail) and no txt file (screw), yes

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:20
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors


Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

I can't agree. This sounds like you're using the same tool regardless of the job. Everything looks like a nail?


G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

 

that´s a reason I simply don´t understand. You have tools which you use in your every day work.

Why do you want to use _other_ tools in simple projects and expand the complexity in what you have to learn?

I here this every day in my company, mostly when it goes to use zf in simple projects.

 

Jm2c

 

Marc

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 10:45
An: Del
Cc: Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

 

G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:


Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.



On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply | Threaded
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|

Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

richard
In reply to this post by Spabby
It takes time (money?) to learn to use a new tool which may inadvertently negate the utility of a project. Best tool for the job is great but not always practical. I think all points expressed here are right, though the choice of tool might depend entirely on circumstance.



On 27 Aug 2013, at 11:20, Gary Hockin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It is that easy. If you only use one tool for the job because that's what you know then you aren't always using the best tool for the job.


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I wish that this problem is that easy, but it isn´t.

The problem with your approach are mostly your coworkers or to be precise mine.

You have to educate them all if you wish to use multiple approaches for nearly the same thing.

And yes, here you have a nail and only a nail. The db can´t morph from a nail into a screw.

 

But let´s not dive into this here plz J

 

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:52


An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

That doesn´t even make sense L

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:45


An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

When all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a nail ;)

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

If i have a db (nail) and no txt file (screw), yes

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 11:20
An: Marc Tempelmeier
Cc: Del; Zend Framework Contributors


Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

I can't agree. This sounds like you're using the same tool regardless of the job. Everything looks like a nail?


G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

 

that´s a reason I simply don´t understand. You have tools which you use in your every day work.

Why do you want to use _other_ tools in simple projects and expand the complexity in what you have to learn?

I here this every day in my company, mostly when it goes to use zf in simple projects.

 

Jm2c

 

Marc

 

Von: Gary Hockin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2013 10:45
An: Del
Cc: Zend Framework Contributors
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

 

*Better* is such a subjective term. A lightweight ORM built around Zend\Db may be _better_ than Doctrine in some instances. Personally I don't like to have to depend on the entirety of Doctrine for a very simple project, and a lightweight structured way of using Zend\Db would have a place for me in this situation.

 

G

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Del <[hidden email]> wrote:


Here is my thought.

Everyone knows and uses Doctrine, it's a fully featured ORM solution that does everything.  If you are going to write your own ORM and you want people to use it, then you will need to make an ORM that is better than Doctrine.  In doing that, you will simply go mad.

You are better off conserving your energy and programming skills for something more worthwhile and achievable.

I have been on a number of projects where someone's decided to write their own ORM.  It's all ended up in failure -- you spend your entire life fixing bugs in the ORM you built rather than writing code.  Let someone else (Doctrine maintainers) do that.

I am not trying to doubt your programming skills here -- maybe you really are a fantastic programmer who can build an ORM that's better than Doctrine and make it bug free and easy to use.  That's great. However if you are then there are more important problems for you to solve, I'm sure of it.



On 27/08/13 18:12, Axel wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Am 22.08.2013 21:03, schrieb Martin Keckeis:

*When going through the list and looking what requests are in, I feel
like that most people want an ORM like Doctrine, if they use Zend\Db.*


Interesting, I'm currently implementing a simple ORM solution based on
the zf2 TableGateway classes.
This is not yet complete and will still receive major design changes.

 

 

 

 

 


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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Stefano Torresi
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

Spabby
Try adding Doctrine to a project that has a complex legacy database :D

G


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Stefano Torresi <[hidden email]> wrote:
While the whole "right tool for the job" argument may have its points, I don't see the problem with this specific instance. IMHO Doctrine gets easier the simpler the project is. I have used it very small projects where I only needed a single table in a sqlite db: it was glaringly fast to set up, and still provided a good, reliable and extensible persistence layer.

I definitely didn't feel like turning a screw with a hammer. I just used a big hammer on a small nail and that made nailing faster, as one would expect :P

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Re: ZF2 issue report (2013-08-22) - result for Zend\Db

zburnham
Using Doctrine for a project with a single table in a sqlite database strikes me as using a wrecking ball to play Jenga.


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 8:42 AM, Gary Hockin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Try adding Doctrine to a project that has a complex legacy database :D

G


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Stefano Torresi <[hidden email]> wrote:
While the whole "right tool for the job" argument may have its points, I don't see the problem with this specific instance. IMHO Doctrine gets easier the simpler the project is. I have used it very small projects where I only needed a single table in a sqlite db: it was glaringly fast to set up, and still provided a good, reliable and extensible persistence layer.

I definitely didn't feel like turning a screw with a hammer. I just used a big hammer on a small nail and that made nailing faster, as one would expect :P


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