Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

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Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

weierophinney
Administrator
Hey, all --

Somebody linked me to an interesting question:

    http://forums.zend.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=103858#p191568

Basically, the author asks if we could ship a version of the skeleton
application that's, well, a skeleton -- specifically, a version that
doesn't include:

 * translations
 * twitter bootstrap

I think they have a very valid point -- if you're not planning to use
twitter bootstrap in your application, it shouldn't be there to start
(as that means an extra step to remove it). Similarly, the translations
are for the text given in the application home page and layout -- stuff
you're not going to include in your final application.

Perhaps we should have a branch that's truly minimal, and which is used
for starting a new project -- vs. having an appealing landing page?

Thoughts?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc
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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

akrabat
On 14 Nov 2012, at 18:47, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey, all --
>
> Somebody linked me to an interesting question:
>
>    http://forums.zend.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=103858#p191568
>
> Basically, the author asks if we could ship a version of the skeleton
> application that's, well, a skeleton -- specifically, a version that
> doesn't include:
>
> * translations
> * twitter bootstrap
>

I'm certainly in favour. With nearly every ZF2 project I've started, I've stripped out translations,  index.phtml, favion.ico and re-worked parts of the layout.


Regards,

Rob....
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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

SpiffyJr
Ditto. Incredibly annoying having to constantly strip those out with every single clone.


Kyle S
"There is a tide in the affairs of men. Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; Omitted, all the voyage of their life Is bound in shallows and in miseries." - WIlliam Shakespeare



On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Rob Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 14 Nov 2012, at 18:47, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey, all --
>
> Somebody linked me to an interesting question:
>
>    http://forums.zend.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=103858#p191568
>
> Basically, the author asks if we could ship a version of the skeleton
> application that's, well, a skeleton -- specifically, a version that
> doesn't include:
>
> * translations
> * twitter bootstrap
>

I'm certainly in favour. With nearly every ZF2 project I've started, I've stripped out translations,  index.phtml, favion.ico and re-worked parts of the layout.


Regards,

Rob....

Kyle S
blogs @ www.spiffyjr.me
github @ www.github.com/spiffyjr
follow @ www.twitter.com/spiffyjr
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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Andreas Möller
In reply to this post by akrabat
+1


Best regards,

Andreas
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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Michael Gooden
In reply to this post by weierophinney
Hi all,

I like the approach of ZF1, where the only "non-clean" file is the index.phtml, which links to external resources for stylesheets and scripts.

My ideal ZF2 skeleton would be as it is now, but with no translations (those are completely irrelevant to my final app), and the index page as we have now, but linked to external resources, and with an empty layout file.

With this I can create a new project, make sure that my virtual server/PHPCloud/etc. is setup correctly by seeing the index page, then just deleting or clearing the index.phtml to have a base for my project.

Regards,

Michael Gooden


On 14 November 2012 12:47, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey, all --

Somebody linked me to an interesting question:

    http://forums.zend.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=103858#p191568

Basically, the author asks if we could ship a version of the skeleton
application that's, well, a skeleton -- specifically, a version that
doesn't include:

 * translations
 * twitter bootstrap

I think they have a very valid point -- if you're not planning to use
twitter bootstrap in your application, it shouldn't be there to start
(as that means an extra step to remove it). Similarly, the translations
are for the text given in the application home page and layout -- stuff
you're not going to include in your final application.

Perhaps we should have a branch that's truly minimal, and which is used
for starting a new project -- vs. having an appealing landing page?

Thoughts?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc

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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Anthony Shireman
I've been working on a minimal version with just a responsive layout as a base for future projects, but not using Bootstrap or any javascript to do so. I think this would be a good step in the right direction.


On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Michael Gooden <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

I like the approach of ZF1, where the only "non-clean" file is the index.phtml, which links to external resources for stylesheets and scripts.

My ideal ZF2 skeleton would be as it is now, but with no translations (those are completely irrelevant to my final app), and the index page as we have now, but linked to external resources, and with an empty layout file.

With this I can create a new project, make sure that my virtual server/PHPCloud/etc. is setup correctly by seeing the index page, then just deleting or clearing the index.phtml to have a base for my project.

Regards,

Michael Gooden


On 14 November 2012 12:47, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey, all --

Somebody linked me to an interesting question:

    http://forums.zend.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=103858#p191568

Basically, the author asks if we could ship a version of the skeleton
application that's, well, a skeleton -- specifically, a version that
doesn't include:

 * translations
 * twitter bootstrap

I think they have a very valid point -- if you're not planning to use
twitter bootstrap in your application, it shouldn't be there to start
(as that means an extra step to remove it). Similarly, the translations
are for the text given in the application home page and layout -- stuff
you're not going to include in your final application.

Perhaps we should have a branch that's truly minimal, and which is used
for starting a new project -- vs. having an appealing landing page?

Thoughts?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc


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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Bart McLeod
In reply to this post by weierophinney
It seems I'm the only one who prefers the appealing landing page, compared to what we had in ZF 1.
If people compare frameworks, they should not think: oh, ZF looks just bare compared to the others. I know this is not a valid argument, but I think it is a psychological effect on the less experienced evaluators.

-Bart

Op 14-11-12 19:47, Matthew Weier O'Phinney schreef:
Hey, all --

Somebody linked me to an interesting question:

    http://forums.zend.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=103858#p191568

Basically, the author asks if we could ship a version of the skeleton
application that's, well, a skeleton -- specifically, a version that
doesn't include:

 * translations
 * twitter bootstrap

I think they have a very valid point -- if you're not planning to use
twitter bootstrap in your application, it shouldn't be there to start
(as that means an extra step to remove it). Similarly, the translations
are for the text given in the application home page and layout -- stuff
you're not going to include in your final application.

Perhaps we should have a branch that's truly minimal, and which is used
for starting a new project -- vs. having an appealing landing page?

Thoughts?


--
Bart McLeod
Space Web
Middenlaan 47
6869 VN Heveadorp
The Netherlands
t +31(0)26 3392952
m 06 51 51 89 71
@ [hidden email]
www.spaceweb.nl
zce PHP 4 logo zce PHP 5 logo zce PHP 5.3 logo zce Zend Framework logo

Bart McLeod is a Zend Certified Engineer.

Click to verify!

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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Andreas Möller
Hello Bart,


> It seems I'm the only one who prefers the appealing landing page, compared to what we had in ZF 1.

I agree that it is appealing, but this is only thanks to Twitter Bootstrap. What I think it lacks is leveraging all the features of Twitter Bootstrap with the ZF2 components, e.g. rendering a drop-down navigation within the top navigation bar from a navigation container.

I might have missed something, but this is not as easily achieved at the moment - and slightly off topic - but at the moment it's a bit stuck in the middle: it's neither a bare skeleton nor show-casing the features of ZF2.

> If people compare frameworks, they should not think: oh, ZF looks just bare compared to the others. I know this is not a valid argument, but I think it is a psychological effect on the less experienced evaluators.

I strongly agree - it would probably help a lot if some variant looked as awesome as it could.


Best regards,

Andreas
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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Antoine Hedgecock
In reply to this post by weierophinney
+1

Best regards
Antoine hedgecock
PMG Media Group AB

----- Reply message -----
From: "Andreas Möller" <[hidden email]>
To: "Bart McLeod" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: [zf-contributors] Skeleton app -- making it more minimal
Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2012 21:59


Hello Bart,


> It seems I'm the only one who prefers the appealing landing page, compared to what we had in ZF 1.

I agree that it is appealing, but this is only thanks to Twitter Bootstrap. What I think it lacks is leveraging all the features of Twitter Bootstrap with the ZF2 components, e.g. rendering a drop-down navigation within the top navigation bar from a navigation container.

I might have missed something, but this is not as easily achieved at the moment - and slightly off topic - but at the moment it's a bit stuck in the middle: it's neither a bare skeleton nor show-casing the features of ZF2.

> If people compare frameworks, they should not think: oh, ZF looks just bare compared to the others. I know this is not a valid argument, but I think it is a psychological effect on the less experienced evaluators.

I strongly agree - it would probably help a lot if some variant looked as awesome as it could.


Best regards,

Andreas
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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

weierophinney
Administrator
In reply to this post by Andreas Möller
-- Andreas Möller <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 09:59 PM +0100):

> > It seems I'm the only one who prefers the appealing landing page,
> > compared to what we had in ZF 1.
>
> I agree that it is appealing, but this is only thanks to Twitter
> Bootstrap. What I think it lacks is leveraging all the features of
> Twitter Bootstrap with the ZF2 components, e.g. rendering a drop-down
> navigation within the top navigation bar from a navigation container.
>
> I might have missed something, but this is not as easily achieved at
> the moment - and slightly off topic - but at the moment it's a bit
> stuck in the middle: it's neither a bare skeleton nor show-casing the
> features of ZF2.
>
> > If people compare frameworks, they should not think: oh, ZF looks
> > just bare compared to the others. I know this is not a valid
> > argument, but I think it is a psychological effect on the less
> > experienced evaluators.
>
> I strongly agree - it would probably help a lot if some variant looked
> as awesome as it could.

I personally love the look of the skeleton application. While it doesn't
show off all the ZF2 features, it's really nice to be able to install,
and immediately prove that "it works", and does so in a beautiful way.

The problem, however, is that once you actually start _working_ in the
project, you more than likely need to strip this stuff out. That
means extra steps you have to take when you begin development. And
that's exactly the sort of thing the skeleton app is supposed to
_prevent_.

My suggestion is:

 * Keep the current stuff, but
 * Have a branch that is minimal, and which users may select when
   cloning, installing via composer, etc.

I think this would be the best of both worlds -- something flashy for
prototyping or trying out features, and something minimal for those who
just want to get started working.

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc
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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Bart McLeod

Op 14-11-12 22:44, Matthew Weier O'Phinney schreef:

> -- Andreas Möller <[hidden email]> wrote
> (on Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 09:59 PM +0100):
>>> It seems I'm the only one who prefers the appealing landing page,
>>> compared to what we had in ZF 1.
>> I agree that it is appealing, but this is only thanks to Twitter
>> Bootstrap. What I think it lacks is leveraging all the features of
>> Twitter Bootstrap with the ZF2 components, e.g. rendering a drop-down
>> navigation within the top navigation bar from a navigation container.
>>
>> I might have missed something, but this is not as easily achieved at
>> the moment - and slightly off topic - but at the moment it's a bit
>> stuck in the middle: it's neither a bare skeleton nor show-casing the
>> features of ZF2.
>>
>>> If people compare frameworks, they should not think: oh, ZF looks
>>> just bare compared to the others. I know this is not a valid
>>> argument, but I think it is a psychological effect on the less
>>> experienced evaluators.
>> I strongly agree - it would probably help a lot if some variant looked
>> as awesome as it could.
> I personally love the look of the skeleton application. While it doesn't
> show off all the ZF2 features, it's really nice to be able to install,
> and immediately prove that "it works", and does so in a beautiful way.
>
> The problem, however, is that once you actually start _working_ in the
> project, you more than likely need to strip this stuff out. That
> means extra steps you have to take when you begin development. And
> that's exactly the sort of thing the skeleton app is supposed to
> _prevent_.
>
> My suggestion is:
>
>   * Keep the current stuff, but
>   * Have a branch that is minimal, and which users may select when
>     cloning, installing via composer, etc.
>
> I think this would be the best of both worlds -- something flashy for
> prototyping or trying out features, and something minimal for those who
> just want to get started working.
>
I understand the line of thought and it is obviously a good idea to have
a minimal branch availabe to anyone who really just needs the barebones.
What I did so far in the little :( time I could spend with ZF 2 is just
leave everything in place and develop new modules without touching or
changing anything in the core Skeleton application.

- Bart

--

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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Mohammad ZeinEddin
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
In reply to this post by weierophinney
Maybe having a branch that is minimal will give us the ability of putting more code in the "bigger" branch, like for example putting some navigation code or any other widely used code, I think this will also be an advantage when someone want to start a "more preconfigured" application.

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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Tomáš Fejfar
In reply to this post by Bart McLeod
Couldn't most of the parts of the skeleton be refactored out into modules? It would make sense if the cloned skeleton would be only bare-bones (that's why it's a skeleton) and have stuff set in composer.json to be downloaded? 

You probably don't use translations, but many non-english developers need at least native + english so having translations out of the box is great! 

Matthew, wouldn't one more branch mean much more work? We should also optimize human resources (you and the team) - not only the app :D

Tomas Fejfar, w3w.cz

twitter: @tomasfejfar

email: [hidden email]
www: http://www.tomasfejfar.cz



On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:52 PM, Bart McLeod <[hidden email]> wrote:

Op 14-11-12 22:44, Matthew Weier O'Phinney schreef:

-- Andreas Möller <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 09:59 PM +0100):
It seems I'm the only one who prefers the appealing landing page,
compared to what we had in ZF 1.
I agree that it is appealing, but this is only thanks to Twitter
Bootstrap. What I think it lacks is leveraging all the features of
Twitter Bootstrap with the ZF2 components, e.g. rendering a drop-down
navigation within the top navigation bar from a navigation container.

I might have missed something, but this is not as easily achieved at
the moment - and slightly off topic - but at the moment it's a bit
stuck in the middle: it's neither a bare skeleton nor show-casing the
features of ZF2.

If people compare frameworks, they should not think: oh, ZF looks
just bare compared to the others. I know this is not a valid
argument, but I think it is a psychological effect on the less
experienced evaluators.
I strongly agree - it would probably help a lot if some variant looked
as awesome as it could.
I personally love the look of the skeleton application. While it doesn't
show off all the ZF2 features, it's really nice to be able to install,
and immediately prove that "it works", and does so in a beautiful way.

The problem, however, is that once you actually start _working_ in the
project, you more than likely need to strip this stuff out. That
means extra steps you have to take when you begin development. And
that's exactly the sort of thing the skeleton app is supposed to
_prevent_.

My suggestion is:

  * Keep the current stuff, but
  * Have a branch that is minimal, and which users may select when
    cloning, installing via composer, etc.

I think this would be the best of both worlds -- something flashy for
prototyping or trying out features, and something minimal for those who
just want to get started working.

I understand the line of thought and it is obviously a good idea to have a minimal branch availabe to anyone who really just needs the barebones. What I did so far in the little :( time I could spend with ZF 2 is just leave everything in place and develop new modules without touching or changing anything in the core Skeleton application.

- Bart

--


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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

xoops
In reply to this post by weierophinney
I strongly desire for a lean skeleton or even a bare framework from the very beginning of ZF2.


On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey, all --

Somebody linked me to an interesting question:

    http://forums.zend.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=103858#p191568

Basically, the author asks if we could ship a version of the skeleton
application that's, well, a skeleton -- specifically, a version that
doesn't include:

 * translations
 * twitter bootstrap

I think they have a very valid point -- if you're not planning to use
twitter bootstrap in your application, it shouldn't be there to start
(as that means an extra step to remove it). Similarly, the translations
are for the text given in the application home page and layout -- stuff
you're not going to include in your final application.

Perhaps we should have a branch that's truly minimal, and which is used
for starting a new project -- vs. having an appealing landing page?

Thoughts?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc



--

Taiwen Jiang (aka D.J.)

Build Xoops Engine
web and mobile application platform

CTO for EEFOCUS.com
Leading social platform for electronics professionals


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AW: [zf-contributors] Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Marc Tempelmeier
In reply to this post by weierophinney
I agree with this one. I use Zend Studio and to strip everything from the
skeleton is not a good thing. The additional problem is to update
bootstrap, there will be newer versions and you have to change the
files anyway or update Zend Studio more often.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Matthew Weier O'Phinney [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. November 2012 22:44
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

-- Andreas Möller <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 09:59 PM +0100):

> > It seems I'm the only one who prefers the appealing landing page,
> > compared to what we had in ZF 1.
>
> I agree that it is appealing, but this is only thanks to Twitter
> Bootstrap. What I think it lacks is leveraging all the features of
> Twitter Bootstrap with the ZF2 components, e.g. rendering a drop-down
> navigation within the top navigation bar from a navigation container.
>
> I might have missed something, but this is not as easily achieved at
> the moment - and slightly off topic - but at the moment it's a bit
> stuck in the middle: it's neither a bare skeleton nor show-casing the
> features of ZF2.
>
> > If people compare frameworks, they should not think: oh, ZF looks
> > just bare compared to the others. I know this is not a valid
> > argument, but I think it is a psychological effect on the less
> > experienced evaluators.
>
> I strongly agree - it would probably help a lot if some variant looked
> as awesome as it could.

I personally love the look of the skeleton application. While it doesn't
show off all the ZF2 features, it's really nice to be able to install,
and immediately prove that "it works", and does so in a beautiful way.

The problem, however, is that once you actually start _working_ in the
project, you more than likely need to strip this stuff out. That
means extra steps you have to take when you begin development. And
that's exactly the sort of thing the skeleton app is supposed to
_prevent_.

My suggestion is:

 * Keep the current stuff, but
 * Have a branch that is minimal, and which users may select when
   cloning, installing via composer, etc.

I think this would be the best of both worlds -- something flashy for
prototyping or trying out features, and something minimal for those who
just want to get started working.

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc
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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Spabby
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
In reply to this post by Bart McLeod

It's completely dependant on the purpose of the application. If it's purpose is to be a starting point for new projects it should be as bare as possible. If it's purpose is to showcase the framework then it should be as complete as it can be.

I personally feel that the twitter bootstrap stuff and pretty landing page are fine; you'd have to remove any html in the layout and view to start working on your application anyway. However the translations are a step too far. in my opinion a significant number of people are stripping that out straight away, therefore it shouldn't be in if the skeleton app's purpose is a starting point. 

I think another problem is that "skeleton" is a misnomer based on current functionality.

Total ramblings, sorry.

Gary

On Nov 14, 2012 8:42 PM, "Bart McLeod [via Zend Framework Community]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
It seems I'm the only one who prefers the appealing landing page, compared to what we had in ZF 1.
If people compare frameworks, they should not think: oh, ZF looks just bare compared to the others. I know this is not a valid argument, but I think it is a psychological effect on the less experienced evaluators.

-Bart

Op 14-11-12 19:47, Matthew Weier O'Phinney schreef:
Hey, all --

Somebody linked me to an interesting question:

    http://forums.zend.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=103858#p191568

Basically, the author asks if we could ship a version of the skeleton
application that's, well, a skeleton -- specifically, a version that
doesn't include:

 * translations
 * twitter bootstrap

I think they have a very valid point -- if you're not planning to use
twitter bootstrap in your application, it shouldn't be there to start
(as that means an extra step to remove it). Similarly, the translations
are for the text given in the application home page and layout -- stuff
you're not going to include in your final application.

Perhaps we should have a branch that's truly minimal, and which is used
for starting a new project -- vs. having an appealing landing page?

Thoughts?


--
Bart McLeod
Space Web
Middenlaan 47
6869 VN Heveadorp
The Netherlands
t <a href="tel:%2B31%280%2926%203392952" value="+31263392952" target="_blank">+31(0)26 3392952
m 06 51 51 89 71
@ [hidden email]
www.spaceweb.nl
zce PHP 4 logo zce PHP 5 logo zce PHP 5.3 logo zce Zend Framework logo

Bart McLeod is a Zend Certified Engineer.

Click to verify!




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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

mattcockayne
In reply to this post by Marc Tempelmeier
For my pennies worth....

I like the out of the box feel of the skeleton and think we should definitely keep it as is. This makes it something pretty to look at for people new to the framework and want to see something happening quickly.

If people are like me then they will have taken the default skeleton and modified it to suite there needs and personal preferences and then saved it somewhere to reuse. I say let people manage their own variants of the skeleton and merge in updates from upstream as and when it becomes necessary.

if people are adamant about stripping bits out then I would suggest a script that can be run that will strip out the "extras" from the skeleton rather than another branch to have to manage.

totally agree with Tomas about managing peoples time just as much as branches and the less variants you guys have to manage the more you can work on things that matter more.





On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree with this one. I use Zend Studio and to strip everything from the
skeleton is not a good thing. The additional problem is to update
bootstrap, there will be newer versions and you have to change the
files anyway or update Zend Studio more often.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Matthew Weier O'Phinney [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. November 2012 22:44
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

-- Andreas Möller <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 09:59 PM +0100):
> > It seems I'm the only one who prefers the appealing landing page,
> > compared to what we had in ZF 1.
>
> I agree that it is appealing, but this is only thanks to Twitter
> Bootstrap. What I think it lacks is leveraging all the features of
> Twitter Bootstrap with the ZF2 components, e.g. rendering a drop-down
> navigation within the top navigation bar from a navigation container.
>
> I might have missed something, but this is not as easily achieved at
> the moment - and slightly off topic - but at the moment it's a bit
> stuck in the middle: it's neither a bare skeleton nor show-casing the
> features of ZF2.
>
> > If people compare frameworks, they should not think: oh, ZF looks
> > just bare compared to the others. I know this is not a valid
> > argument, but I think it is a psychological effect on the less
> > experienced evaluators.
>
> I strongly agree - it would probably help a lot if some variant looked
> as awesome as it could.

I personally love the look of the skeleton application. While it doesn't
show off all the ZF2 features, it's really nice to be able to install,
and immediately prove that "it works", and does so in a beautiful way.

The problem, however, is that once you actually start _working_ in the
project, you more than likely need to strip this stuff out. That
means extra steps you have to take when you begin development. And
that's exactly the sort of thing the skeleton app is supposed to
_prevent_.

My suggestion is:

 * Keep the current stuff, but
 * Have a branch that is minimal, and which users may select when
   cloning, installing via composer, etc.

I think this would be the best of both worlds -- something flashy for
prototyping or trying out features, and something minimal for those who
just want to get started working.

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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Andreas Möller
In reply to this post by Marc Tempelmeier
Hello Matthew,


> I personally love the look of the skeleton application. While it doesn't
> show off all the ZF2 features, it's really nice to be able to install,
> and immediately prove that "it works", and does so in a beautiful way.

It also quickly shows that you can't render a drop-down navigation easily, because - as far as I can tell - the htmlify() method of the navigation view helper doesn't allow custom attributes, as it ignores all but a few.

Can this be amended, easily? Or shall one have to register a custom navigation helper for this?


Best regards,

Andreas

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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Artur Bodera
In reply to this post by mattcockayne
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Matt Cockayne <[hidden email]> wrote:
If people are like me then they will have taken the default skeleton and modified it to suite there needs and personal preferences and then saved it somewhere to reuse. I say let people manage their own variants of the skeleton and merge in updates from upstream as and when it becomes necessary.

It's easier to strip out stuff you don't need....

... as opposed to getting a barebone, empty white page app and then searching for ways to add basic stuff.


There might be a naming error there (i've noted that a few months back).
"Skeleton" suggests it's a "minimal" version of something.
Current "skeleton" is not minimal - it's more of a "StarterApp" with basic functionality. 

Actually, we could have several of those, if there's really a need for such stuff. I.e.:

 * barebone - MINIMAL version, hello world, just works.
 * basic app - some basic routes, maybe translation.
 * full/showcase app - many features, possibly a few external modules, clone-and-learn type of thing.

Each next app could be a sub-branch, extending over the previous one. 
There could also be branches, like i.e. translations example, console example, etc.
 

That's all assuming we're into such things ....


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Re: Skeleton app -- making it more minimal

Andreas Möller
Hello Artur,


> It's easier to strip out stuff you don't need....
>
> ... as opposed to getting a barebone, empty white page app and then searching for ways to add basic stuff.

Unless the documentation is there, and that is - at least from my point of view - the reason for the ZendSkeletonApplication in the first place. There shouldn't be a need for a ZendSkeletonApplication as one should be able to create a ZF2 app from scratch quickly - given the documentation is there.


Best regards,

Andreas
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