RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

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RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

weierophinney
Administrator
I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
framework.

So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc
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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Spabby
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
Yes!

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 2:41 PM, weierophinney [via Zend Framework Community] <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
framework.

So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]

To start a new topic under ZF Contributor, email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from ZF Contributor, click here.
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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

robertbasic
In reply to this post by weierophinney
On 4 October 2012 15:40, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
> late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
> information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
> status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
> In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
> framework.
>
> So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
> ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?
>

Yes.
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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Wesley Overdijk
In reply to this post by weierophinney
No. It's not part of the skeleton. It could be included in some sort of wiki, or getting started page. Or perhaps even in the readme. I just wouldn't add it, and enable it by default. It's called a skeleton, not "ReferenceApplicationForNewComers". But that's just my humble opinion.

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
framework.

So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc

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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Marco Pivetta
In reply to this post by weierophinney
It would be nice, but I'd ask Coss first.
Are there modules that get to "break" with ZDT right now? Shouldn't be like that, but just in case...

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius     

http://marco-pivetta.com    



On 4 October 2012 15:40, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
framework.

So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc

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Re: [zf-contributors] RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Marco Pivetta
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
In reply to this post by weierophinney
It would be nice, but I'd ask Coss first.
Are there modules that get to "break" with ZDT right now? Shouldn't be like that, but just in case...

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius     

http://marco-pivetta.com    



On 4 October 2012 15:40, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
framework.

So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc

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RE: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

demiankatz
In reply to this post by Wesley Overdijk

I agree – if the skeleton app is really meant to be a skeleton, it should contain as little as possible.  But would it make sense to have a ZendStarterApplication that is composed from the skeleton and some useful add-ons?  Or would proliferation of these things cause more confusion than it’s worth?

 

- Demian

 

From: Wesley Overdijk [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 9:45 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [zf-contributors] RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

 

No. It's not part of the skeleton. It could be included in some sort of wiki, or getting started page. Or perhaps even in the readme. I just wouldn't add it, and enable it by default. It's called a skeleton, not "ReferenceApplicationForNewComers". But that's just my humble opinion.

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
framework.

So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc

 

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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Marco Pivetta
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
Just having it in `suggests` would also be a nice addition... After all it is 2 LOC for the end user: one in composer.json and one in config/application.config.pgp

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius     

http://marco-pivetta.com    



On 4 October 2012 15:50, demiankatz [via Zend Framework Community] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree – if the skeleton app is really meant to be a skeleton, it should contain as little as possible.  But would it make sense to have a ZendStarterApplication that is composed from the skeleton and some useful add-ons?  Or would proliferation of these things cause more confusion than it’s worth?

 

- Demian

 

From: Wesley Overdijk [mailto:[hidden email]]

Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 9:45 AM
To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [zf-contributors] RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

 

No. It's not part of the skeleton. It could be included in some sort of wiki, or getting started page. Or perhaps even in the readme. I just wouldn't add it, and enable it by default. It's called a skeleton, not "ReferenceApplicationForNewComers". But that's just my humble opinion.

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
framework.

So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]

 




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To unsubscribe from ZF Contributor, click here.
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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Xerkus
In reply to this post by weierophinney
On 05.10.2012 0:40, Matthew Weier O'Phinney wrote:

> I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
> late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
> information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
> status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
> In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
> framework.
>
> So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
> ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?
>
Skeleton grew out of simple skeleton application anyway so i think it
can be included.
But may be better option is to update tutorial application and add
toolbar there?

Ps: sorry for extra mail, hit wrong button
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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Spabby
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
I don't think the "it's only a skeleton" cut's the mustard, we have translate in there.

G

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 2:55 PM, Xerkus [via Zend Framework Community] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 05.10.2012 0:40, Matthew Weier O'Phinney wrote:

> I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
> late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
> information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
> status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
> In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
> framework.
>
> So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
> ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?
>
Skeleton grew out of simple skeleton application anyway so i think it
can be included.
But may be better option is to update tutorial application and add
toolbar there?

Ps: sorry for extra mail, hit wrong button



To start a new topic under ZF Contributor, email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from ZF Contributor, click here.
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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Ralf Eggert
In reply to this post by Wesley Overdijk
Hi,

I agree on this, that it shouldn't be part of the skeleton.

I would rather add a hint to the README how to install the ZDT. Or even
better include this in the User Guide and reference to it from the
README of the ZendSkeletonApplication.

If you want to pimp the ZendSkeletonApplication here are more suggestions:

- add meaningful Docblocks to every file
- add session and navigation setup since almost every body will need it
- add proper layout segments for footer, header, sidebar, etc. since
  almost every body will need it, use a listener for the setup and
  users will love the concrete usage

Jm2c

Regards,

Ralf
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AW: [zf-contributors] RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Marc Tempelmeier
In reply to this post by weierophinney
adding to this:

a section in the config which will set php settings.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Ralf Eggert [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. Oktober 2012 16:06
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Hi,

I agree on this, that it shouldn't be part of the skeleton.

I would rather add a hint to the README how to install the ZDT. Or even
better include this in the User Guide and reference to it from the
README of the ZendSkeletonApplication.

If you want to pimp the ZendSkeletonApplication here are more suggestions:

- add meaningful Docblocks to every file
- add session and navigation setup since almost every body will need it
- add proper layout segments for footer, header, sidebar, etc. since
  almost every body will need it, use a listener for the setup and
  users will love the concrete usage

Jm2c

Regards,

Ralf
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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Adam Lundrigan
In reply to this post by Wesley Overdijk
I agree with Wesley on this.  I like that ZendSkeletonApplication is just that, a skeleton you can use to quickly get the minimum MVC application up and running;  It should only include things that every application will use.

Perhaps we should have two "reference" applications?  Keep ZendSkeletonApplication as the "barebones" jump-off point for creating a new ZF2 application, having just the minimum necessary to make it a functioning MVC application.  Then add another reference application, "ZendKitchenSink" or similar, which shows off examples of using each of the framework components and possibly some of the more common/popular modules.  

Personally, I like the way Sencha has organized it's "Samples and Demos" section for ExtJS (http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/examples/).  They provide some fully-fledged example applications (Feed Viewer, Calendar, Simple Tasks) as well as a number of functional, standalone examples of each component bundled with ExtJS.  Perhaps we could rally a community effort around creating content for this type of "Samples & Demos" section?

--
Adam Lundrigan, B.Sc, ZCE
[hidden email]


On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Wesley Overdijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
No. It's not part of the skeleton. It could be included in some sort of wiki, or getting started page. Or perhaps even in the readme. I just wouldn't add it, and enable it by default. It's called a skeleton, not "ReferenceApplicationForNewComers". But that's just my humble opinion.


On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
framework.

So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc


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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Spabby
I don't think my last reply made the list so...

This isn't consistant, not every app will use Translate for example, but it's in skeleton. Either it needs to be just that (a skeleton), or it should be a starting point, if it's a starting point then ZDT has a place.

G

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Adam Lundrigan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree with Wesley on this.  I like that ZendSkeletonApplication is just that, a skeleton you can use to quickly get the minimum MVC application up and running;  It should only include things that every application will use.

Perhaps we should have two "reference" applications?  Keep ZendSkeletonApplication as the "barebones" jump-off point for creating a new ZF2 application, having just the minimum necessary to make it a functioning MVC application.  Then add another reference application, "ZendKitchenSink" or similar, which shows off examples of using each of the framework components and possibly some of the more common/popular modules.  

Personally, I like the way Sencha has organized it's "Samples and Demos" section for ExtJS (http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/examples/).  They provide some fully-fledged example applications (Feed Viewer, Calendar, Simple Tasks) as well as a number of functional, standalone examples of each component bundled with ExtJS.  Perhaps we could rally a community effort around creating content for this type of "Samples & Demos" section?

--
Adam Lundrigan, B.Sc, ZCE
[hidden email]



On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Wesley Overdijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
No. It's not part of the skeleton. It could be included in some sort of wiki, or getting started page. Or perhaps even in the readme. I just wouldn't add it, and enable it by default. It's called a skeleton, not "ReferenceApplicationForNewComers". But that's just my humble opinion.


On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
framework.

So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?

--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc



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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Alister Bulman
In reply to this post by demiankatz
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Demian Katz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I agree – if the skeleton app is really meant to be a skeleton, it should
> contain as little as possible.  But would it make sense to have a
> ZendStarterApplication that is composed from the skeleton and some useful
> add-ons?  Or would proliferation of these things cause more confusion than
> it’s worth?
> - Demian

Speaking for myself, having a fully featured sample application, with
users and logins (email/password and by things like
Facebook/Twitter/linkedIn), full and proper password recovery, ACL
permissions, simple backend admin and more would be enormously
helpful.

With ZF now making it so easy to include (or disable) such
functionality that takes a lot of time to get right, it would be an
huge productivity boost - and even better - would show exactly how
much more productive PHP developers could be by just needing to write
only the core functionality that is unique to a project.

Alister


> From: Wesley Overdijk [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 9:45 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [zf-contributors] RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in
> ZendSkeletonApplication
>
>
>
> No. It's not part of the skeleton. It could be included in some sort of
> wiki, or getting started page. Or perhaps even in the readme. I just
> wouldn't add it, and enable it by default. It's called a skeleton, not
> "ReferenceApplicationForNewComers". But that's just my humble opinion.
>
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
> late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
> information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
> status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
> In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
> framework.
>
> So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
> ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?
>
> --
> Matthew Weier O'Phinney
> Project Lead            | [hidden email]
> Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
> PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc
>
>
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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Derek Miranda

> On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Demian Katz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I agree – if the skeleton app is really meant to be a skeleton, it should
>> contain as little as possible.  But would it make sense to have a
>> ZendStarterApplication that is composed from the skeleton and some useful
>> add-ons?  Or would proliferation of these things cause more confusion than
>> it’s worth?
>> - Demian
>
> Speaking for myself, having a fully featured sample application, with
> users and logins (email/password and by things like
> Facebook/Twitter/linkedIn), full and proper password recovery, ACL
> permissions, simple backend admin and more would be enormously
> helpful.
>
> With ZF now making it so easy to include (or disable) such
> functionality that takes a lot of time to get right, it would be an
> huge productivity boost - and even better - would show exactly how
> much more productive PHP developers could be by just needing to write
> only the core functionality that is unique to a project.
>
> Alister
>

I completely agree with Alister.

>
>> From: Wesley Overdijk [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 9:45 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [zf-contributors] RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in
>> ZendSkeletonApplication
>>
>>
>>
>> No. It's not part of the skeleton. It could be included in some sort of
>> wiki, or getting started page. Or perhaps even in the readme. I just
>> wouldn't add it, and enable it by default. It's called a skeleton, not
>> "ReferenceApplicationForNewComers". But that's just my humble opinion.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I've started playing with the developer toolbar finally (I know, I'm
>> late to the game!), and find it quite useful for purposes of timing
>> information, CPU/memory usage, detecting what version I'm on, seeing
>> status codes, and figuring out what controller/action were discovered.
>> In short, I think it could be quite useful for newcomers to the
>> framework.
>>
>> So, my question is quite simple: should we include and enable the
>> ZendDeveloperTools module in the skeleton application by default?
>>
>> --
>> Matthew Weier O'Phinney
>> Project Lead            | [hidden email]
>> Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
>> PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc
>>
>>

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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Ralf Eggert
In reply to this post by Adam Lundrigan
Hi,

why not call the fully features example application ZendBoilerPlate?

Regards,

Ralf
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AW: [zf-contributors] RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Marc Tempelmeier
In reply to this post by weierophinney
like this?

http://zf-boilerplate.com/

;)

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Ralf Eggert [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. Oktober 2012 17:06
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Hi,

why not call the fully features example application ZendBoilerPlate?

Regards,

Ralf
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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Tomáš Fejfar
ZDT have composer, right? So I would suggest adding a simple "few-liner" to the readme on how to enable it. Composer will handle the rest. It would actually be nice to have such behavior for all major parts of the app. That way you would be able to "build" the required resources yourself. For super-simple setup I can imagine something like:

"
# comment modules you don't want using hash
ZendDeveloperTools
ZfcUser
AnyOtherModule
ZFSkeletonTranslation
ZFSketetonDatabase
...
" > skeleton.init

$ php init-skeleton.php

Loading skeleton.init
Writing composer.json (possible merge any configuration already present there)
Delegating Composer (=executing: composer update)
Your skeleton is ready, sir :)

And your app is ready with modules you want and nothing more ;)

2012/10/4 Marc Tempelmeier <[hidden email]>
like this?

http://zf-boilerplate.com/

;)

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Ralf Eggert [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. Oktober 2012 17:06
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [zf-contributors] RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Hi,

why not call the fully features example application ZendBoilerPlate?

Regards,

Ralf

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Re: RFC: Include ZendDeveloperTools in ZendSkeletonApplication

Andreas Möller
In reply to this post by Ralf Eggert

> why not call the fully features example application ZendBoilerPlate?

I believe that documentation is more important than a boiler-plate application.


Andreas
12