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Framework Leadership

Jayson Minard (ZF)
Framework Leadership
Hello everyone,

I wanted to quickly introduce myself as the new lead for the Zend Framework for Zend.  I will be stepping into Mike’s role in working within the framework development team, and coordinating the effort as a whole.  Therefore, let me tell you a bit about myself and my thoughts on this project.

I have been in software development for what seems like forever, yet I can never get enough of working with code.  I have held most engineering and technical management titles from engineer through architect through CIO and CTO.  I have worked in consulting and commercial software working on development languages and tools such as Force (go back a ways), PowerBuilder, Delphi, Java and JBuilder.  And also working with applications on both the desktop and out on the web.  I have been in Open Source with a startup I cofounded called OpenAvenue where we were the home for CVS and for projects from commercial companies going out to Open Source for the first time.  My full history can be seen on LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/33/a25).  If you scan it and see a lot of Java, you should also know that I do full-on PHP, and even .NET/Mono (C# and Boo).  Just as I work evenly across MySQL, PostgreSQL, Firebird, SQL Server and Oracle.  I am all about taking advantage of everything we possibly can to accomplish our goals, and that is something I bring as a main strength to this project.

I have been around the project for some time working as the Editor in Chief for the Zend Developer Zone (devzone.zend.com) which has been based on the framework since well before the first public preview.  I also worked a bit on exploring a future step for the framework in bringing a component model to PHP as a task supporting Andi in conveying his vision for PHP given at his most recent keynotes (phpBlox at http://devzone.zend.com/node/view/id/216).  And now I’m working directly with you all on the framework itself.

The Zend Framework is a chance to have an IT accepted framework for PHP (with clean IP) as well as providing a much clearer and simpler path “to success” for PHP developers of any and all types.  We can bring all of the best practices buried in our heads into a solid framework that the PHP community can leverage in productive ways.  We succeed when those using the framework succeed.  (uh oh, I’m starting to sound like an infomercial).

So what are our plans for the framework?

First, get the proposal process predictable and moving.  We want those that wish to be involved, to get involved.  We want that excitement you have for your ideas translated into great code for the framework.  We will be making slight changes to this process and making it more responsive and inclusive.  As has been suggested before, we will quickly make an “ideas” repository to hold all non-incubator and non-core ideas.  Something that might not be right or ready for “now” might be perfect for a short time down the road and should have a place to continue progressing within the public and community eye.  As we set a date for 0.1.4, we’ll also set aside time immediately following to catch up all proposals, get them to their new homes, and add them to a roadmap for future releases.  

Since I mentioned setting a date for 0.1.4, I should talk a bit about releases.  We are going to move to a more consistent release model where we hit regular intervals and try to predict ahead of time when those will be.  0.1.4 date will be set in the next few days along with the proposal catch-up window.  As we move through those time frames we’ll set 0.2.0 and a few releases beyond.  We’ll even need to start talking about a 1.0 and what will make a great 1.0 for later this year.  I would rather set goals than have people guessing as to what we have in mind.  

In order to land each release, and especially a 1.0.  We need to get clearer about the intent of each area of the framework.  What is the purpose, the scope, and the exclusions for each.  Some of the original pre-proposal-process components are lacking this clarity and we’ll catch this up in the proposal catch-up window as well. The framework as a whole should make sense, and so should each component and their relationships to each other.  

To make the trip towards a 1.0 smooth, we need to make sure we have all of the infrastructure to make all of our jobs easier.  We are reviewing the comments from the mailing list and provided directly by others to see what needs to be quickly put in place to keep us from anything that will slow us down.  Searching the mailing list is one area, increasing the use of Trac another, helping us keep up with patches another, seeing what we are missing yet another.  Keep the comments coming and we’ll see what works best at each phase of growing this project.

Lastly we will start using the voice of Zend Developer Zone a bit more to carry some of the communications for the framework.  We can use the resources of that team to give us more infrastructure for carrying announcements, the proposal system, framework blogging, and anything else appropriate for that system.  

So that’s it for now.  Feel free to contact me or anyone of the full-time-on-the-framework Zend team (Alexander Veremyev, Darby Felton, Gavin Vess) for any reason.  If you have something moving, or that you want to get moving, help get me up to speed quickly so I can help.

-- Jayson
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RE: Framework Leadership

Andries Seutens
Jayson,

Thanks for introducing yourself!

I wish you the best of luck as the new lead for the Zend Framework.

Kindest regards,

Andries Seutens
Belgium
http://andries.sytray.be/blog/

________________________________________
Van: Jayson Minard [mailto:[hidden email]]
Verzonden: donderdag 18 mei 2006 21:17
Aan: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Onderwerp: [fw-general] Framework Leadership


Hello everyone,

I wanted to quickly introduce myself as the new lead for the Zend Framework
for Zend.  I will be stepping into Mike’s role in working within the
framework development team, and coordinating the effort as a whole.
 Therefore, let me tell you a bit about myself and my thoughts on this
project.

I have been in software development for what seems like forever, yet I can
never get enough of working with code.  I have held most engineering and
technical management titles from engineer through architect through CIO and
CTO.  I have worked in consulting and commercial software working on
development languages and tools such as Force (go back a ways),
PowerBuilder, Delphi, Java and JBuilder.  And also working with applications
on both the desktop and out on the web.  I have been in Open Source with a
startup I cofounded called OpenAvenue where we were the home for CVS and for
projects from commercial companies going out to Open Source for the first
time.  My full history can be seen on LinkedIn
(http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/33/a25).  If you scan it and see a lot of
Java, you should also know that I do full-on PHP, and even .NET/Mono (C# and
Boo).  Just as I work evenly across MySQL, PostgreSQL, Firebird, SQL Server
and Oracle.  I am all about taking advantage of everything we possibly can
to accomplish our goals, and that is something I bring as a main strength to
this project.

I have been around the project for some time working as the Editor in Chief
for the Zend Developer Zone (devzone.zend.com) which has been based on the
framework since well before the first public preview.  I also worked a bit
on exploring a future step for the framework in bringing a component model
to PHP as a task supporting Andi in conveying his vision for PHP given at
his most recent keynotes (phpBlox at
http://devzone.zend.com/node/view/id/216).  And now I’m working directly
with you all on the framework itself.

The Zend Framework is a chance to have an IT accepted framework for PHP
(with clean IP) as well as providing a much clearer and simpler path “to
success” for PHP developers of any and all types.  We can bring all of the
best practices buried in our heads into a solid framework that the PHP
community can leverage in productive ways.  We succeed when those using the
framework succeed.  (uh oh, I’m starting to sound like an infomercial).

So what are our plans for the framework?

First, get the proposal process predictable and moving.  We want those that
wish to be involved, to get involved.  We want that excitement you have for
your ideas translated into great code for the framework.  We will be making
slight changes to this process and making it more responsive and inclusive.
 As has been suggested before, we will quickly make an “ideas” repository to
hold all non-incubator and non-core ideas.  Something that might not be
right or ready for “now” might be perfect for a short time down the road and
should have a place to continue progressing within the public and community
eye.  As we set a date for 0.1.4, we’ll also set aside time immediately
following to catch up all proposals, get them to their new homes, and add
them to a roadmap for future releases.  

Since I mentioned setting a date for 0.1.4, I should talk a bit about
releases.  We are going to move to a more consistent release model where we
hit regular intervals and try to predict ahead of time when those will be.
 0.1.4 date will be set in the next few days along with the proposal
catch-up window.  As we move through those time frames we’ll set 0.2.0 and a
few releases beyond.  We’ll even need to start talking about a 1.0 and what
will make a great 1.0 for later this year.  I would rather set goals than
have people guessing as to what we have in mind.  

In order to land each release, and especially a 1.0.  We need to get clearer
about the intent of each area of the framework.  What is the purpose, the
scope, and the exclusions for each.  Some of the original
pre-proposal-process components are lacking this clarity and we’ll catch
this up in the proposal catch-up window as well. The framework as a whole
should make sense, and so should each component and their relationships to
each other.  

To make the trip towards a 1.0 smooth, we need to make sure we have all of
the infrastructure to make all of our jobs easier.  We are reviewing the
comments from the mailing list and provided directly by others to see what
needs to be quickly put in place to keep us from anything that will slow us
down.  Searching the mailing list is one area, increasing the use of Trac
another, helping us keep up with patches another, seeing what we are missing
yet another.  Keep the comments coming and we’ll see what works best at each
phase of growing this project.

Lastly we will start using the voice of Zend Developer Zone a bit more to
carry some of the communications for the framework.  We can use the
resources of that team to give us more infrastructure for carrying
announcements, the proposal system, framework blogging, and anything else
appropriate for that system.  

So that’s it for now.  Feel free to contact me or anyone of the
full-time-on-the-framework Zend team (Alexander Veremyev, Darby Felton,
Gavin Vess) for any reason.  If you have something moving, or that you want
to get moving, help get me up to speed quickly so I can help.

-- Jayson

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Re: Framework Leadership

Mislav Marohnić
In reply to this post by Jayson Minard (ZF)
Hello Jayson!

I'm sure everyone wants to know: will 'ideas' repository become a home for rejected components and such?
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Re: Framework Leadership

Jayson Minard (ZF)
Re: [fw-general] Framework Leadership Hello Mislav,

The “ideas” repository is for everything outside of core and incubator including anything in the proposal process that is being considered and being developed for that consideration, anything not-yet promoted, and anything that was rejected as there is always a chance of a few things:

  1. we were wrong (we are human after all)
  2. that the timing just wasn’t right
  3. that our focus isn’t yet in that area
  4. that new ideas come to light that make it work

One thing that will help the process is to give a better idea of current focus so that we can have more proposals in that area when our collective mind is thinking about that area.  Proposals outside focus can still come in, but we don’t want to reject one just because we do not have the bandwidth to better consider its contents.  So by moving that focus spotlight around and getting groups of proposals together, we can do a better job and finding, guiding, and developing more of them into the framework.

--j


On 5/18/06 12:27 PM, "Mislav Marohnić" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Jayson!

I'm sure everyone wants to know: will 'ideas' repository become a home for rejected components and such?


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Re: Framework Leadership

Matthew Ratzloff
In reply to this post by Jayson Minard (ZF)
Jayson,

Sounds good--I look forward to all of those changes.  But be honest... the
paragraph on your background was from the cover letter to your resume,
wasn't it?  ;-)

-Matt

> Hello everyone,
>
> ...
>
> I have been in software development for what seems like forever, yet I can
> never get enough of working with code.  I have held most engineering and
> technical management titles from engineer through architect through CIO
> and CTO.  I have worked in consulting and commercial software working on
> development languages and tools such as Force (go back a ways),
> PowerBuilder, Delphi, Java and JBuilder.  And also working with
> applications on both the desktop and out on the web.  I have been in
> Open Source with a startup I cofounded called OpenAvenue where we were
> the home for CVS and for projects from commercial companies going out
> to Open Source for the first time.  My full history can be seen on
> LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/33/a25).  If you scan it and see
> a lot of Java, you should also know that I do full-on PHP, and even
> .NET/Mono (C# and Boo).  Just as I work evenly across MySQL, PostgreSQL,
> Firebird, SQL Server and Oracle.  I am all about taking advantage of
> everything we possibly can to accomplish our goals, and that is something
> I bring as a main strength to this project.

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Re: Framework Leadership

Cal Evans
In reply to this post by Jayson Minard (ZF)
Is it too late to beg Mike to come back?  I promise, no more Sir Michael
jokes.

:)

I am of course just kidding. It's been my honor to work with Jayson for
the past 2-3 months and I know that if there's anyone who can attempt to
step into the void Mike is leaving, Jayson is the one to do it. (Now
maybe he'll be too busy to harangue me about my spelling!)

=C=
|
| Cal Evans
| http://blog.calevans.com
|
|

Jayson Minard wrote:

>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I wanted to quickly introduce myself as the new lead for the Zend
> Framework for Zend.  I will be stepping into Mike’s role in working
> within the framework development team, and coordinating the effort as a
> whole.  Therefore, let me tell you a bit about myself and my thoughts on
> this project.
>
> I have been in software development for what seems like forever, yet I
> can never get enough of working with code.  I have held most engineering
> and technical management titles from engineer through architect through
> CIO and CTO.  I have worked in consulting and commercial software
> working on development languages and tools such as Force (go back a
> ways), PowerBuilder, Delphi, Java and JBuilder.  And also working with
> applications on both the desktop and out on the web.  I have been in
> Open Source with a startup I cofounded called OpenAvenue where we were
> the home for CVS and for projects from commercial companies going out to
> Open Source for the first time.  My full history can be seen on LinkedIn
> (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/33/a25).  If you scan it and see a lot of
> Java, you should also know that I do full-on PHP, and even .NET/Mono (C#
> and Boo).  Just as I work evenly across MySQL, PostgreSQL, Firebird, SQL
> Server and Oracle.  I am all about taking advantage of everything we
> possibly can to accomplish our goals, and that is something I bring as a
> main strength to this project.
>
> I have been around the project for some time working as the Editor in
> Chief for the Zend Developer Zone (devzone.zend.com) which has been
> based on the framework since well before the first public preview.  I
> also worked a bit on exploring a future step for the framework in
> bringing a component model to PHP as a task supporting Andi in conveying
> his vision for PHP given at his most recent keynotes (phpBlox at
> http://devzone.zend.com/node/view/id/216).  And now I’m working directly
> with you all on the framework itself.
>
> The Zend Framework is a chance to have an IT accepted framework for PHP
> (with clean IP) as well as providing a much clearer and simpler path “to
> success” for PHP developers of any and all types.  We can bring all of
> the best practices buried in our heads into a solid framework that the
> PHP community can leverage in productive ways.  We succeed when those
> using the framework succeed.  (uh oh, I’m starting to sound like an
> infomercial).
>
> So what are our plans for the framework?
>
> First, get the proposal process predictable and moving.  We want those
> that wish to be involved, to get involved.  We want that excitement you
> have for your ideas translated into great code for the framework.  We
> will be making slight changes to this process and making it more
> responsive and inclusive.  As has been suggested before, we will quickly
> make an “ideas” repository to hold all non-incubator and non-core ideas.
>  Something that might not be right or ready for “now” might be perfect
> for a short time down the road and should have a place to continue
> progressing within the public and community eye.  As we set a date for
> 0.1.4, we’ll also set aside time immediately following to catch up all
> proposals, get them to their new homes, and add them to a roadmap for
> future releases.  
>
> Since I mentioned setting a date for 0.1.4, I should talk a bit about
> releases.  We are going to move to a more consistent release model where
> we hit regular intervals and try to predict ahead of time when those
> will be.  0.1.4 date will be set in the next few days along with the
> proposal catch-up window.  As we move through those time frames we’ll
> set 0.2.0 and a few releases beyond.  We’ll even need to start talking
> about a 1.0 and what will make a great 1.0 for later this year.  I would
> rather set goals than have people guessing as to what we have in mind.  
>
> In order to land each release, and especially a 1.0.  We need to get
> clearer about the intent of each area of the framework.  What is the
> purpose, the scope, and the exclusions for each.  Some of the original
> pre-proposal-process components are lacking this clarity and we’ll catch
> this up in the proposal catch-up window as well. The framework as a
> whole should make sense, and so should each component and their
> relationships to each other.  
>
> To make the trip towards a 1.0 smooth, we need to make sure we have all
> of the infrastructure to make all of our jobs easier.  We are reviewing
> the comments from the mailing list and provided directly by others to
> see what needs to be quickly put in place to keep us from anything that
> will slow us down.  Searching the mailing list is one area, increasing
> the use of Trac another, helping us keep up with patches another, seeing
> what we are missing yet another.  Keep the comments coming and we’ll see
> what works best at each phase of growing this project.
>
> Lastly we will start using the voice of Zend Developer Zone a bit more
> to carry some of the communications for the framework.  We can use the
> resources of that team to give us more infrastructure for carrying
> announcements, the proposal system, framework blogging, and anything
> else appropriate for that system.  
>
> So that’s it for now.  Feel free to contact me or anyone of the
> full-time-on-the-framework Zend team (Alexander Veremyev, Darby Felton,
> Gavin Vess) for any reason.  If you have something moving, or that you
> want to get moving, help get me up to speed quickly so I can help.
>
> -- Jayson
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Re: Framework Leadership

Jayson Minard (ZF)
In reply to this post by Jayson Minard (ZF)
Hey Rob,

I'll add it to my review list.  Unit tests are important and will be a
requirement for every component to stay in core (and even for incubator).
So catching up some of the code that is behind is a good step.

Besides looking at the details of your tests, we need to add standards for
testing to the framework coding standards document.

For databases in particular, let's make the default database name, user
name, and password one that won't accidentally conflict with others and that
are likely to be usable by most people running tests.  By default, if
everyone sets up a similar database, the tests just work out of the box.
The defines only need adjustment when someone cannot meet the default for
whatever reason.  A statement of the desired account restrictions and access
should be included, and example database creation scripts for each of the
tested database engines.

Same for what the standard startup and teardown should be for database tests
(or file based, or others that create persistent artifacts) to keep them
clean and runnable at all times.

Do you want to take a stab at the first cut of those standards?

--j
 


On 5/18/06 12:53 PM, "Rob Allen" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jayson Minard wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>
> Hi !
>
> It'll be nice to have predictable releases :) I suspect that a more
> active use of Trac will also help everyone.
>
> I know you are busy, but can you add unit tests for
> Zend_Db_Adapter_Pdo_* to your list of things to be looked at this month?
> I wrote up some tests and posted to the list asking for feedback (see
> http://www.zend.com/lists/fw-general/200605/msg00259.html) and don't
> want to commit until a few others have had a chance to comment.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob...
>


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Re: Framework Leadership

Jayson Minard (ZF)
In reply to this post by Matthew Ratzloff
Hello Matthew,

Nope, hand typed just for you.  Albeit the content is the same as if I ever
did cover letters.  <g>

--j


On 5/18/06 1:10 PM, "Matthew Ratzloff" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jayson,
>
> Sounds good--I look forward to all of those changes.  But be honest... the
> paragraph on your background was from the cover letter to your resume,
> wasn't it?  ;-)
>
> -Matt
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I have been in software development for what seems like forever, yet I can
>> never get enough of working with code.  I have held most engineering and
>> technical management titles from engineer through architect through CIO
>> and CTO.  I have worked in consulting and commercial software working on
>> development languages and tools such as Force (go back a ways),
>> PowerBuilder, Delphi, Java and JBuilder.  And also working with
>> applications on both the desktop and out on the web.  I have been in
>> Open Source with a startup I cofounded called OpenAvenue where we were
>> the home for CVS and for projects from commercial companies going out
>> to Open Source for the first time.  My full history can be seen on
>> LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/33/a25).  If you scan it and see
>> a lot of Java, you should also know that I do full-on PHP, and even
>> .NET/Mono (C# and Boo).  Just as I work evenly across MySQL, PostgreSQL,
>> Firebird, SQL Server and Oracle.  I am all about taking advantage of
>> everything we possibly can to accomplish our goals, and that is something
>> I bring as a main strength to this project.
>


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Re: Framework Leadership

Arnaud Limbourg
In reply to this post by Jayson Minard (ZF)
Hello,

Thank you for this explanation, plans on the framework should be up on
the framework site ;)

Arnaud.

Jayson Minard wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
<snip>
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Re: Framework Leadership

Jayson Minard (ZF)
Arnaud,

They will be, just taking the site deployment out for a test drive before we
do one for real with content updates.

--j


On 5/18/06 1:35 PM, "Arnaud Limbourg" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Thank you for this explanation, plans on the framework should be up on
> the framework site ;)
>
> Arnaud.
>
> Jayson Minard wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
> <snip>
>


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Re: Framework Leadership

Johannes Orth
In reply to this post by Jayson Minard (ZF)
Hi Jayson,

I wish you all the best and thanks for your work.

Johannes Orth
Bonn, Germany
Blog: http://www.johannesorth.de/kathry/


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Re: Framework Leadership

Jayson Minard (ZF)
Thanks Johannes,

As conversations heat up around template engines for Zend Framework (and
possibly to support a component model down the road), what are your thoughts
on PHPTAL style (extended HTML attributes and tags) versus custom tag style
(i.e. Smarty) versus PHP itself as a template?  I only ask as you are on
record as being a fan of PHPTAL.

--j


On 5/18/06 1:37 PM, "Johannes Orth" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jayson,
>
> I wish you all the best and thanks for your work.
>
> Johannes Orth
> Bonn, Germany
> Blog: http://www.johannesorth.de/kathry/
>
>


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Re: Framework Leadership

Steven Van Poeck
I Just saw PHPTAL has a LGPL license. As discussed earlier on this list
(http://www.zend.com/lists/fw-general/200605/msg00652.html), does that
not prohibit the Zend Framework of using it ?

Just wondering...

Steven Van Poeck
http://svanpoeck.free.fr/blog/tech/

Jayson Minard a écrit :

> Thanks Johannes,
>
> As conversations heat up around template engines for Zend Framework (and
> possibly to support a component model down the road), what are your thoughts
> on PHPTAL style (extended HTML attributes and tags) versus custom tag style
> (i.e. Smarty) versus PHP itself as a template?  I only ask as you are on
> record as being a fan of PHPTAL.
>
> --j
>
>
> On 5/18/06 1:37 PM, "Johannes Orth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jayson,
>>
>> I wish you all the best and thanks for your work.
>>
>> Johannes Orth
>> Bonn, Germany
>> Blog: http://www.johannesorth.de/kathry/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: Framework Leadership

Steven Van Poeck
In reply to this post by Jayson Minard (ZF)
Hi Jayson,

All the best for taking over Mike's daunting tasks :)

Steven Van Poeck

Jayson Minard a écrit :

> Hello Mislav,
>
> The “ideas” repository is for everything outside of core and incubator
> including anything in the proposal process that is being considered and
> being developed for that consideration, anything not-yet promoted, and
> anything that was rejected as there is always a chance of a few things:
>
>    1. we were wrong (we are human after all)
>    2. that the timing just wasn’t right
>    3. that our focus isn’t yet in that area
>    4. that new ideas come to light that make it work
>
>
> One thing that will help the process is to give a better idea of current
> focus so that we can have more proposals in that area when our
> collective mind is thinking about that area.  Proposals outside focus
> can still come in, but we don’t want to reject one just because we do
> not have the bandwidth to better consider its contents.  So by moving
> that focus spotlight around and getting groups of proposals together, we
> can do a better job and finding, guiding, and developing more of them
> into the framework.
>
> --j
>
>
> On 5/18/06 12:27 PM, "Mislav Marohnić" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>     Hello Jayson!
>
>     I'm sure everyone wants to know: will 'ideas' repository become a
>     home for rejected components and such?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/343 - Release Date: 18/05/2006

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Re: Framework Leadership

Johannes Orth
In reply to this post by Jayson Minard (ZF)
Hi,

> As conversations heat up around template engines for Zend Framework (and
> possibly to support a component model down the road), what are your
> thoughts on PHPTAL style (extended HTML attributes and tags) versus custom
> tag style (i.e. Smarty) versus PHP itself as a template?  I only ask as you
> are on record as being a fan of PHPTAL.
I confess I am really a fan of PHPTAL. But actually I think that PHP itself as
a template is the best solution. Often enough a template engine is just pure
overhead. If I use a template engine, I prefer PHPTAL to Smarty. I do not
like the custom tag style {foobar}. Valid html/xhtml/xml templates are great.

WACT has great thoughts on different template techniques, here is the link:
http://www.phpwact.org/pattern/template_view

By the way, does anyone know a php template engine, which uses "pull data
population"? http://www.phpwact.org/pattern/template_view#pull 

Here is a quick checklist for template engines:
http://www.phpwact.org/pattern/good_template_smells
http://www.phpwact.org/pattern/bad_template_smells


Johannes Orth
Bonn, Germany
Blog: http://www.johannesorth.de/kathry/
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Re: Framework Leadership

Jayson Minard (ZF)
In reply to this post by Steven Van Poeck
Yes it does.  I wasn't suggesting that we would even go down this road as
much as have a conversation about the merits of each in case we find need
later.  Right now it is more for making sure we play well with them rather
than bringing them inside or creating a new one.  It will also help to keep
the different styles in mind to keep Zend_View within its scope.

--j


On 5/18/06 1:57 PM, "Steven Van Poeck" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I Just saw PHPTAL has a LGPL license. As discussed earlier on this list
> (http://www.zend.com/lists/fw-general/200605/msg00652.html), does that
> not prohibit the Zend Framework of using it ?
>
> Just wondering...
>
> Steven Van Poeck
> http://svanpoeck.free.fr/blog/tech/
>
> Jayson Minard a écrit :
>> Thanks Johannes,
>>
>> As conversations heat up around template engines for Zend Framework (and
>> possibly to support a component model down the road), what are your thoughts
>> on PHPTAL style (extended HTML attributes and tags) versus custom tag style
>> (i.e. Smarty) versus PHP itself as a template?  I only ask as you are on
>> record as being a fan of PHPTAL.
>>
>> --j
>>
>>
>> On 5/18/06 1:37 PM, "Johannes Orth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jayson,
>>>
>>> I wish you all the best and thanks for your work.
>>>
>>> Johannes Orth
>>> Bonn, Germany
>>> Blog: http://www.johannesorth.de/kathry/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


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Re: Framework Leadership

Paul M Jones
In reply to this post by Johannes Orth
On May 18, 2006, at 4:10 PM, Johannes Orth wrote:

> I confess I am really a fan of PHPTAL. But actually I think that  
> PHP itself as
> a template is the best solution. Often enough a template engine is  
> just pure
> overhead.

Another traveller on the True Path.  :-)



--

Paul M. Jones  <http://paul-m-jones.com>

Solar: Simple Object Library and Application Repository
for PHP5.   <http://solarphp.com>

Savant: The simple, elegant, and powerful solution for
templates in PHP.   <http://phpsavant.com>


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Re: Framework Leadership

Paul M Jones
In reply to this post by Jayson Minard (ZF)
On May 18, 2006, at 4:12 PM, Jayson Minard wrote:

> I wasn't suggesting that we would even go down this road as
> much as have a conversation about the merits of each in case we  
> find need
> later.  Right now it is more for making sure we play well with them  
> rather
> than bringing them inside or creating a new one.

I think the "playing well" part is pretty solid; see the following  
example for how Zend_View can interoperate with (of all things) the  
venerable PHPLIB template system:

     http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/ 
zend.view.scripts.html#zend.view.scripts.templates

In short, Zend_View is just a way for the controller to hand off to  
the view in a standardized fashion; the view script receives the  
variables and can then do what it wants with them, whether by using  
PHP directly to generate output or by instantiating an external  
template system.  (Savant and Solar_View can be used in exactly the  
same way if one wishes.)


--

Paul M. Jones  <http://paul-m-jones.com>

Solar: Simple Object Library and Application Repository
for PHP5.   <http://solarphp.com>

Savant: The simple, elegant, and powerful solution for
templates in PHP.   <http://phpsavant.com>


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Re: Framework Leadership

Arnaud Limbourg
In reply to this post by Johannes Orth
> By the way, does anyone know a php template engine, which uses "pull data
> population"? http://www.phpwact.org/pattern/template_view#pull 

I don't know one. I implemented a pull-style helper that takes a PDO
statement as parameter and thus pull the data itself from the database.
When there are a lot of records to pull from the db it avoids passing
possibly humongous arrays around.

Arnaud.
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Re: Framework Leadership

Stefan Koopmanschap
In reply to this post by Jayson Minard (ZF)
Welcome! Quite a track record you got there. And definitely interesting ideas to get the Framework even more solidly on the road to stability. I look forward to working with you on the Framework in terms of my translation contributions and hopefully soon also coding work.

Stefan

On 5/18/06, Jayson Minard <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello everyone,

I wanted to quickly introduce myself as the new lead for the Zend Framework for Zend.  I will be stepping into Mike's role in working within the framework development team, and coordinating the effort as a whole.  Therefore, let me tell you a bit about myself and my thoughts on this project.

I have been in software development for what seems like forever, yet I can never get enough of working with code.  I have held most engineering and technical management titles from engineer through architect through CIO and CTO.  I have worked in consulting and commercial software working on development languages and tools such as Force (go back a ways), PowerBuilder, Delphi, Java and JBuilder.  And also working with applications on both the desktop and out on the web.  I have been in Open Source with a startup I cofounded called OpenAvenue where we were the home for CVS and for projects from commercial companies going out to Open Source for the first time.  My full history can be seen on LinkedIn ( <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/33/a25%29." target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/33/a25).  If you scan it and see a lot of Java, you should also know that I do full-on PHP, and even .NET/Mono (C# and Boo).  Just as I work evenly across MySQL, PostgreSQL, Firebird, SQL Server and Oracle.  I am all about taking advantage of everything we possibly can to accomplish our goals, and that is something I bring as a main strength to this project.

I have been around the project for some time working as the Editor in Chief for the Zend Developer Zone (<a href="http://devzone.zend.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">devzone.zend.com ) which has been based on the framework since well before the first public preview.  I also worked a bit on exploring a future step for the framework in bringing a component model to PHP as a task supporting Andi in conveying his vision for PHP given at his most recent keynotes (phpBlox at <a href="http://devzone.zend.com/node/view/id/216%29." target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://devzone.zend.com/node/view/id/216).  And now I'm working directly with you all on the framework itself.

The Zend Framework is a chance to have an IT accepted framework for PHP (with clean IP) as well as providing a much clearer and simpler path "to success" for PHP developers of any and all types.  We can bring all of the best practices buried in our heads into a solid framework that the PHP community can leverage in productive ways.  We succeed when those using the framework succeed.  (uh oh, I'm starting to sound like an infomercial).

So what are our plans for the framework?

First, get the proposal process predictable and moving.  We want those that wish to be involved, to get involved.  We want that excitement you have for your ideas translated into great code for the framework.  We will be making slight changes to this process and making it more responsive and inclusive.  As has been suggested before, we will quickly make an "ideas" repository to hold all non-incubator and non-core ideas.  Something that might not be right or ready for "now" might be perfect for a short time down the road and should have a place to continue progressing within the public and community eye.  As we set a date for 0.1.4, we'll also set aside time immediately following to catch up all proposals, get them to their new homes, and add them to a roadmap for future releases.  

Since I mentioned setting a date for 0.1.4, I should talk a bit about releases.  We are going to move to a more consistent release model where we hit regular intervals and try to predict ahead of time when those will be.   0.1.4 date will be set in the next few days along with the proposal catch-up window.  As we move through those time frames we'll set 0.2.0 and a few releases beyond.  We'll even need to start talking about a 1.0 and what will make a great 1.0 for later this year.  I would rather set goals than have people guessing as to what we have in mind.  

In order to land each release, and especially a 1.0.  We need to get clearer about the intent of each area of the framework.  What is the purpose, the scope, and the exclusions for each.  Some of the original pre-proposal-process components are lacking this clarity and we'll catch this up in the proposal catch-up window as well. The framework as a whole should make sense, and so should each component and their relationships to each other.  

To make the trip towards a 1.0 smooth, we need to make sure we have all of the infrastructure to make all of our jobs easier.  We are reviewing the comments from the mailing list and provided directly by others to see what needs to be quickly put in place to keep us from anything that will slow us down.  Searching the mailing list is one area, increasing the use of Trac another, helping us keep up with patches another, seeing what we are missing yet another.  Keep the comments coming and we'll see what works best at each phase of growing this project.

Lastly we will start using the voice of Zend Developer Zone a bit more to carry some of the communications for the framework.  We can use the resources of that team to give us more infrastructure for carrying announcements, the proposal system, framework blogging, and anything else appropriate for that system.  

So that's it for now.  Feel free to contact me or anyone of the full-time-on-the-framework Zend team (Alexander Veremyev, Darby Felton, Gavin Vess) for any reason.  If you have something moving, or that you want to get moving, help get me up to speed quickly so I can help.

-- Jayson



--
Stefan Koopmanschap
http://www.stefankoopmanschap.nl/
http://www.leftontheweb.com/
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