Discontinuing Maintenance of ZendX JQuery - Suggest drop for 2.0

[Benjamin Eberlei-2]

Hello everyone,

2 years ago I was pretty sure of the Dojo and jQuery components/integration into ZF. I have since changed my mind radically. I do maintained the jQuery component but I would suggest to drop it for 2.0 for the following reasons:

1. It encourages writing no JS code at all, this will bite you in the ass heavily if you find out that you need to customize the jQuery logic.
2. It does not encourage javascript code re-use (jQuery plugins are the way to go here)
3. Heavy usage causes technical debt, it becomes impossible to rewrite your app using proper jquery/javscript code.
4. The PHP code required to write "ZendX JQuery" code is often more than the jQuery required alone.

Since only people that don't know javascript "benefit" from this extension (in the short run) I suggest to drop it not to encourage people to run into the wrong direction by using it (they will thank us later).

I won't attempt to rewrite ZendX jQuery for 2.0 and i understand that this means it will be dropped automatically. I suggest nobody to take over maintenance for the previously discussed arguments.

greetings,
Benjamin

[Dolf Schimmel]

I agree with Benjamin here. Though I think that the Zend_Dojo allows
for more extensibility than Zendx_Jquery.

However, if we decide to drop ZendX_Jquery (if not, who'll maintain
it?), I think we at least should write some decent documentation on
how one should decently implement Js with ZF.

Dolf
--Freeaqingme

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Benjamin Eberlei <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> 2 years ago I was pretty sure of the Dojo and jQuery components/integration into ZF. I have since changed my mind radically. I do maintained the jQuery component but I would suggest to drop it for 2.0 for the following reasons:
>
> 1. It encourages writing no JS code at all, this will bite you in the ass heavily if you find out that you need to customize the jQuery logic.
> 2. It does not encourage javascript code re-use (jQuery plugins are the way to go here)
> 3. Heavy usage causes technical debt, it becomes impossible to rewrite your app using proper jquery/javscript code.
> 4. The PHP code required to write "ZendX JQuery" code is often more than the jQuery required alone.
>
> Since only people that don't know javascript "benefit" from this extension (in the short run) I suggest to drop it not to encourage people to run into the wrong direction by using it (they will thank us later).
>
> I won't attempt to rewrite ZendX jQuery for 2.0 and i understand that this means it will be dropped automatically. I suggest nobody to take over maintenance for the previously discussed arguments.
>
> greetings,
> Benjamin
>

[paboivin]

Agree with both Dolf and Benjamin.

On 17 January 2011 13:50, Dolf Schimmel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I agree with Benjamin here. Though I think that the Zend_Dojo allows
> for more extensibility than Zendx_Jquery.
>
> However, if we decide to drop ZendX_Jquery (if not, who'll maintain
> it?), I think we at least should write some decent documentation on
> how one should decently implement Js with ZF.
>
> Dolf
> --Freeaqingme
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Benjamin Eberlei <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > 2 years ago I was pretty sure of the Dojo and jQuery
> components/integration into ZF. I have since changed my mind radically. I do
> maintained the jQuery component but I would suggest to drop it for 2.0 for
> the following reasons:
> >
> > 1. It encourages writing no JS code at all, this will bite you in the ass
> heavily if you find out that you need to customize the jQuery logic.
> > 2. It does not encourage javascript code re-use (jQuery plugins are the
> way to go here)
> > 3. Heavy usage causes technical debt, it becomes impossible to rewrite
> your app using proper jquery/javscript code.
> > 4. The PHP code required to write "ZendX JQuery" code is often more than
> the jQuery required alone.
> >
> > Since only people that don't know javascript "benefit" from this
> extension (in the short run) I suggest to drop it not to encourage people to
> run into the wrong direction by using it (they will thank us later).
> >
> > I won't attempt to rewrite ZendX jQuery for 2.0 and i understand that
> this means it will be dropped automatically. I suggest nobody to take over
> maintenance for the previously discussed arguments.
> >
> > greetings,
> > Benjamin
> >
>

--
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web engineer / consultant
www.blink-tech.com

USA/Canada: [phone]
International: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Skype: paul-boivin

[Jigal Sanders]

Please don't discontinue support for jQuery/
I think there are many people who use it

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Dolf Schimmel <[hidden email]>wrote:

> I agree with Benjamin here. Though I think that the Zend_Dojo allows
> for more extensibility than Zendx_Jquery.
>
> However, if we decide to drop ZendX_Jquery (if not, who'll maintain
> it?), I think we at least should write some decent documentation on
> how one should decently implement Js with ZF.
>
> Dolf
> --Freeaqingme
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Benjamin Eberlei <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > 2 years ago I was pretty sure of the Dojo and jQuery
> components/integration into ZF. I have since changed my mind radically. I do
> maintained the jQuery component but I would suggest to drop it for 2.0 for
> the following reasons:
> >
> > 1. It encourages writing no JS code at all, this will bite you in the ass
> heavily if you find out that you need to customize the jQuery logic.
> > 2. It does not encourage javascript code re-use (jQuery plugins are the
> way to go here)
> > 3. Heavy usage causes technical debt, it becomes impossible to rewrite
> your app using proper jquery/javscript code.
> > 4. The PHP code required to write "ZendX JQuery" code is often more than
> the jQuery required alone.
> >
> > Since only people that don't know javascript "benefit" from this
> extension (in the short run) I suggest to drop it not to encourage people to
> run into the wrong direction by using it (they will thank us later).
> >
> > I won't attempt to rewrite ZendX jQuery for 2.0 and i understand that
> this means it will be dropped automatically. I suggest nobody to take over
> maintenance for the previously discussed arguments.
> >
> > greetings,
> > Benjamin
> >
>

--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Jigal Sanders
A.J. Ernststraat 739
1082 LK Amsterdam
Mobiel: 06-42111489

[guyht]

I agree with this.  For any application that requires more than a few lines of JavaScript, the JS should be kept in separate 'javascript' files.


On 17 Jan 2011, at 18:47, Benjamin Eberlei wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> 2 years ago I was pretty sure of the Dojo and jQuery components/integration into ZF. I have since changed my mind radically. I do maintained the jQuery component but I would suggest to drop it for 2.0 for the following reasons:
>
> 1. It encourages writing no JS code at all, this will bite you in the ass heavily if you find out that you need to customize the jQuery logic.
> 2. It does not encourage javascript code re-use (jQuery plugins are the way to go here)
> 3. Heavy usage causes technical debt, it becomes impossible to rewrite your app using proper jquery/javscript code.
> 4. The PHP code required to write "ZendX JQuery" code is often more than the jQuery required alone.
>
> Since only people that don't know javascript "benefit" from this extension (in the short run) I suggest to drop it not to encourage people to run into the wrong direction by using it (they will thank us later).
>
> I won't attempt to rewrite ZendX jQuery for 2.0 and i understand that this means it will be dropped automatically. I suggest nobody to take over maintenance for the previously discussed arguments.
>
> greetings,
> Benjamin

[Michel Lombart]

Just a thought : To not wrote what is already wrote is also the use of a
framework. If you go further, you may discontinue Zend because many
people write less PHP code because "it becomes impossible to rewrite
your app using proper PHP code" ! :-D .

I believe that JS components are a must in a good framework. I know that
if there are no JS component in Zend 2, I WILL use another JS framework
and add it to my Zend applications.

Take care.

Le 17/01/2011 19:47, Benjamin Eberlei a écrit :

> Hello everyone,
>
> 2 years ago I was pretty sure of the Dojo and jQuery components/integration into ZF. I have since changed my mind radically. I do maintained the jQuery component but I would suggest to drop it for 2.0 for the following reasons:
>
> 1. It encourages writing no JS code at all, this will bite you in the ass heavily if you find out that you need to customize the jQuery logic.
> 2. It does not encourage javascript code re-use (jQuery plugins are the way to go here)
> 3. Heavy usage causes technical debt, it becomes impossible to rewrite your app using proper jquery/javscript code.
> 4. The PHP code required to write "ZendX JQuery" code is often more than the jQuery required alone.
>
> Since only people that don't know javascript "benefit" from this extension (in the short run) I suggest to drop it not to encourage people to run into the wrong direction by using it (they will thank us later).
>
> I won't attempt to rewrite ZendX jQuery for 2.0 and i understand that this means it will be dropped automatically. I suggest nobody to take over maintenance for the previously discussed arguments.
>
> greetings,
> Benjamin

[Phil Brown]

Never used ZendX_Jquery for the exact reasons Benjamin's stated as reasons
to abandon it, so that's an "aye" vote from me.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 5:47 AM, Benjamin Eberlei <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> 2 years ago I was pretty sure of the Dojo and jQuery components/integration
> into ZF. I have since changed my mind radically. I do maintained the jQuery
> component but I would suggest to drop it for 2.0 for the following reasons:
>
> 1. It encourages writing no JS code at all, this will bite you in the ass
> heavily if you find out that you need to customize the jQuery logic.
> 2. It does not encourage javascript code re-use (jQuery plugins are the way
> to go here)
> 3. Heavy usage causes technical debt, it becomes impossible to rewrite your
> app using proper jquery/javscript code.
> 4. The PHP code required to write "ZendX JQuery" code is often more than
> the jQuery required alone.
>
> Since only people that don't know javascript "benefit" from this extension
> (in the short run) I suggest to drop it not to encourage people to run into
> the wrong direction by using it (they will thank us later).
>
> I won't attempt to rewrite ZendX jQuery for 2.0 and i understand that this
> means it will be dropped automatically. I suggest nobody to take over
> maintenance for the previously discussed arguments.
>
> greetings,
> Benjamin
>

--
Phil Brown
Web Applications Developer

[ixti]

I absolutely agree with point of Benjamin! And I can tell few reasons more
why this component should be abandoned :))


2011/1/17 Phil Brown <[hidden email]>:

> Never used ZendX_Jquery for the exact reasons Benjamin's stated as reasons
> to abandon it, so that's an "aye" vote from me.
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 5:47 AM, Benjamin Eberlei <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> 2 years ago I was pretty sure of the Dojo and jQuery components/integration
>> into ZF. I have since changed my mind radically. I do maintained the jQuery
>> component but I would suggest to drop it for 2.0 for the following reasons:
>>
>> 1. It encourages writing no JS code at all, this will bite you in the ass
>> heavily if you find out that you need to customize the jQuery logic.
>> 2. It does not encourage javascript code re-use (jQuery plugins are the way
>> to go here)
>> 3. Heavy usage causes technical debt, it becomes impossible to rewrite your
>> app using proper jquery/javscript code.
>> 4. The PHP code required to write "ZendX JQuery" code is often more than
>> the jQuery required alone.
>>
>> Since only people that don't know javascript "benefit" from this extension
>> (in the short run) I suggest to drop it not to encourage people to run into
>> the wrong direction by using it (they will thank us later).
>>
>> I won't attempt to rewrite ZendX jQuery for 2.0 and i understand that this
>> means it will be dropped automatically. I suggest nobody to take over
>> maintenance for the previously discussed arguments.
>>
>> greetings,
>> Benjamin
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Phil Brown
> Web Applications Developer
>

--
Sincerely yours,
Aleksey V. Zapparov A.K.A. ixti
FSF Member #7118
Mobile Phone: [phone]
Homepage: http://www.ixti.ru
JID: [hidden email]

*Origin: Happy Hacking!

[Fabio Napoleoni]

I don't think this is a good idea, I use a lot your view helper in my projects and this is my point of view: while is true that the container helpers are not so useful, I think that the other methods (render, addJavascript, addOnLoad, captureJavascript, etc) are very important for the following reasons:

1. You can specify all the configuration for the library in a single place (library version, use of cdn, additional plugins files, etc)
2. You can conditionally enable inclusion of javascript (and/or css) files based on the current controller/action and see entire list of the included file looking only in a single part of your generated code
3. You can specify onLoad code across different places and find all the onLoad code in a single place in your generated html. The same apply for addJavascript helper.

I think the library should be maintained for the previous reasons, maybe removing the other action helpers, otherwise for the same reasons all the placeholders view helpers should be removed from the library. What do you think?

In addition to it I'm writing an application resource which will allow to configure all jquery aspects (version, ui version, use of cdn, and additional files to load) using the application.ini file. In this way all you have to do is to write <?=$this->jQuery()?> in your layout file. In my opinion it would be very useful to avoid code duplication across projects.

[roland]

> "I think that the other methods (render, addJavascript, addOnLoad, captureJavascript, etc) are very important"

True, but that has nothing to do with jquery itself..

Perhaps a headJs/headCss helper is more in place here. And if you want to it real proper you can consider a Zend_Js component which abstracts the known frameworks out there (for specific ondomready code etc.)

Offtopic;
Was jQuery a well-thought-out descision in the first place? I personally favor PrototypeJS - it's more in line with ZF/OOP - but that's a non-issue if a Zend_Js_Framework interface becomes available :')

[Wil Moore III]

roland wrote

Offtopic;
Was jQuery a well-thought-out descision in the first place? I personally favor PrototypeJS - it's more in line with ZF/OOP - but that's a non-issue if a Zend_Js_Framework interface becomes available :')

Most certainly off-topic; however, if we were to debate JS library virtues, I'd personally favor PrototypeJs to be at the bottom of the "good" virtues list given it modifies built-in object prototypes. Not a good citizen IMHO.

[weierophinney]

-- roland <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Thursday, 30 June 2011, 11:13 AM -0700):

> > "I think that the other methods (render, addJavascript, addOnLoad,
> captureJavascript, etc) are very important"
>
> True, but that has nothing to do with jquery itself..
>
> Perhaps a headJs/headCss helper is more in place here. And if you want to it
> real proper you can consider a Zend_Js component which abstracts the known
> frameworks out there (for specific ondomready code etc.)
>
> Offtopic;
> Was jQuery a well-thought-out descision in the first place? I personally
> favor PrototypeJS - it's more in line with ZF/OOP - but that's a non-issue
> if a Zend_Js_Framework interface becomes available :')

jQuery support was community-led, _after_ Zend partnered with Dojo to
provide direct integration between the two projects. FWIW, Dojo is a
_lot_ more in line with practices we use in ZF OOP than Prototype -- I'd
argue Prototype is almost the exact opposite, tbh, as it tends to either
overload the JS object model or favor declarative styles over OO styles.

(Dojo is very object-oriented, and "plays well" with the JS object
model, ensuring that it doesn't trample over existing prototypes.
Additionally, the module support is very similar to ZF's component
structure, and dojo.require is a very intuitive analog to PHP's
require_once.)

BTW, we offer headScript() and headLink() helpers already, which may
provide the functionality you're looking for when you suggested the
"headJs/headCss" helpers above. This makes it fairly trivial to include
your own or favorite JS and CSS libraries/toolkits/frameworks/scripts on
an ad-hoc basis.

--
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[emamirazavi]

Hi,
I think it's a good idea if you use ZF functionality to load javascript functions and handle them because of some reasons:
1. Compressing and minifying(DOJO has not minified some files already) js files.
2. Change automatically the structure of js codes along modifying php codes.
3. Particularly about Dojo and it's different properties, integrating several files in one file to avoid parallel and vain extra links to host!
4. Js validation be modified according to model and form rules and validation properties.

BUT

If you can't do ZF code simple more than js codes that's idea(My Idea) it's not a good idea,
I think instead of this decision(Discontinuing) you should do simple ZF code to generate js more than writing js codes manually and i can offer you to write ZF module to integrate damn enormous count of DOJO files to one or two or at least tree files and can customize it with ZF. By the way, already i wrote the same code that integrate all DOJO js files just with all dojo.require functions and consider to dependencies...

GOOD LUCK more

[Christof Coetzee]

From a technical point of view I can understand why you chose Dojo for ZF.
Fact is Dojo is bloated and slow and does not have the same community sentiment that jQuery has.

jQuery is already an industry standard with many software companies as is ZF, yet ZF will never fully support the most favourite js framework (jQuery).

Its amazing how people reason about some stuff, anyway I'm sure you guys made the best semantic decision which probably does not cater for the majority of developers.

longevity is 1 of the most vital aspects of any software evaluation process, I've research jQuery vs Dojo quite a bit and it appears that any newbie to Dojo would be wasting his time - jQuery has surpassed Dojo in usage and community contribs etc. by far, infact Dojo usage is declining - the question is when will it become redundant, if only in 5 years, then its still a good idea to stop wasting time with Dojo dev.

I've never even used Zend X - I implement my jQuery in de facto - its a breeze and would obviously be nicer if it was fully integrated by ZF, but it also does not matter to me as I still use ZF Json and other contexts which works well with jQuery.

[Christof Coetzee]

CONTENTS DELETED

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[weierophinney]

-- Christof Coetzee <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Wednesday, 25 January 2012, 09:17 AM -0800):
> Weird how my latest comments are not being approved - are my comments
> not in line with what you want to hear - please approve my comments.

To ensure your comments go through to the list, you should subscribe the
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[Christof Coetzee]

Hi,

 

Then something must be broken, because I have never unsubscribed and have
twice subscribed again (in popup notification) on my lastest 2 comments.

 

Thanks

Christof

 

  _____  

From: weierophinney [via Zend Framework Community]
[mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 25 January 2012 07:39 PM
To: Christof Coetzee
Subject: Re: Discontinuing Maintenance of ZendX JQuery - Suggest drop for
2.0

 

-- Christof Coetzee <[hidden email]> wrote
(on Wednesday, 25 January 2012, 09:17 AM -0800):
> Weird how my latest comments are not being approved - are my comments
> not in line with what you want to hear - please approve my comments.

To ensure your comments go through to the list, you should subscribe the
address from which you post via Nabble (it's as easy as sending a
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