Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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Bad mood on framework.zend.com
 
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Hi,
a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com. http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html Maybe a quick update could call them down a little? Thanks and best regards, Ralf |
Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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Hi Ralf,
The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer. I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was unprofessional on my side. I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project could be/is dead. Cristian PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after a while they are getting rid of ZF completely. > Hi, > > a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the > official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog > entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com. > > http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html > > Maybe a quick update could call them down a little? > > Thanks and best regards, > > Ralf > |
Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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I replied 5 days ago to that post, trying to calm down people. However I agree with Cristian, I think that an update post on the blog could really improve the situation.
> On 21 Nov 2015, at 18:12, Cristian Bichis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi Ralf, > > The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer. I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was unprofessional on my side. > > I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project could be/is dead. > > Cristian > > PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after a while they are getting rid of ZF completely. >> Hi, >> >> a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the >> official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog >> entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com. >> >> http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html >> >> Maybe a quick update could call them down a little? >> >> Thanks and best regards, >> >> Ralf >> > |
Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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I am afraid to say that probably the only honest response is: this
project is no longer budgeted by Zend (by a long time) so that’s why there is no communication/interest and will be no further development. Cristian PS I don't work with any other framework than ZF. > I replied 5 days ago to that post, trying to calm down people. However I agree with Cristian, I think that an update post on the blog could really improve the situation. > >> On 21 Nov 2015, at 18:12, Cristian Bichis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Hi Ralf, >> >> The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer. I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was unprofessional on my side. >> >> I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project could be/is dead. >> >> Cristian >> >> PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after a while they are getting rid of ZF completely. >>> Hi, >>> >>> a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the >>> official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog >>> entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com. >>> >>> http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html >>> >>> Maybe a quick update could call them down a little? >>> >>> Thanks and best regards, >>> >>> Ralf >>> > |
Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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We owe it to everyone who waited for the release and sticked with the project in loyalty, to announce that Zend Framework 3 is discontinued. 2015-11-21 20:54 GMT+01:00 Cristian Bichis <[hidden email]>: I am afraid to say that probably the only honest response is: this project is no longer budgeted by Zend (by a long time) so that’s why there is no communication/interest and will be no further development. |
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In reply to this post by Cristian Bichis-4
It's really bad to spread rumors like this. How can you speculate that Zend is no longer budgeting for ZF development as if it were a fact?
Jeremiah > On Nov 21, 2015, at 11:54 AM, Cristian Bichis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I am afraid to say that probably the only honest response is: this project is no longer budgeted by Zend (by a long time) so that’s why there is no communication/interest and will be no further development. > > Cristian > > PS I don't work with any other framework than ZF. >> I replied 5 days ago to that post, trying to calm down people. However I agree with Cristian, I think that an update post on the blog could really improve the situation. >> >>> On 21 Nov 2015, at 18:12, Cristian Bichis <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Ralf, >>> >>> The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer. I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was unprofessional on my side. >>> >>> I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project could be/is dead. >>> >>> Cristian >>> >>> PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after a while they are getting rid of ZF completely. >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the >>>> official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog >>>> entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com. >>>> >>>> http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html >>>> >>>> Maybe a quick update could call them down a little? >>>> >>>> Thanks and best regards, >>>> >>>> Ralf > |
Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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In reply to this post by Dominic Guhl
I have no dog in this fight, but if you've been paying attention to the community, you will realize that PHP isn't going in the direction of frameworks, rather, it is embracing component libraries.
This is what the PSR-7 specification is about, and the release of Zend Expressive is likely the closest thing you will get to a Zend "Framework." The framework is dead. Long live the interface. On Saturday, November 21, 2015, Dominic Guhl <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- Adam Weinstock 646-736-6736 |
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In reply to this post by jeremiah
Why do you think (I am not going to say "spread rumors") they are
actually budgeted ZF development in the last 1+ year ? When there is basically no communication and the development (beside the amazing effort of some non-Zend guys) is stalling... Cristian > It's really bad to spread rumors like this. How can you speculate that Zend is no longer budgeting for ZF development as if it were a fact? > > Jeremiah > >> On Nov 21, 2015, at 11:54 AM, Cristian Bichis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I am afraid to say that probably the only honest response is: this project is no longer budgeted by Zend (by a long time) so that’s why there is no communication/interest and will be no further development. >> >> Cristian >> >> PS I don't work with any other framework than ZF. >>> I replied 5 days ago to that post, trying to calm down people. However I agree with Cristian, I think that an update post on the blog could really improve the situation. >>> >>>> On 21 Nov 2015, at 18:12, Cristian Bichis <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Ralf, >>>> >>>> The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer. I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was unprofessional on my side. >>>> >>>> I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project could be/is dead. >>>> >>>> Cristian >>>> >>>> PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after a while they are getting rid of ZF completely. >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the >>>>> official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog >>>>> entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com. >>>>> >>>>> http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html >>>>> >>>>> Maybe a quick update could call them down a little? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks and best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Ralf -- Cristian Bichis IMAGIS Strada Faiantei nr 13 550098 Sibiu, Romania Phone: 004.0727.757533 Email: [hidden email] Web: www.imagis.ro |
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This whole point is so far off the mark that I feel embarrassed contributing. I am willing to speculate that with Zend being acquired by Rogue Wave, there is actually a commitment to MORE investment in the coming months. Zend Expressive was released only last month and is a huge game changer in the world of PSR-7 and frameworks. I'm sorry, without being rude you don't know what you are talking about. Gary On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 at 20:18 Cristian Bichis <[hidden email]> wrote: Why do you think (I am not going to say "spread rumors") they are |
Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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In reply to this post by Adam Weinstock
A framework delivers more than just a descriptive composer file. A framework represents patterns, structure and a convention. Sometimes they come with a philosophy. A framework has always been a collection of components, no matter if it was a monolith like in ZF1 or if it's a deplete collection of dependencies and their injection into objects. They come in various sizes for various duties. To see in PSR-7 the end of frameworks is absurd. Zend Expressive is another variant of micro framework - SensioLabs' SILEX is already there a little longer. PSR-7 describes another variant of what REST does for us, and nothing of it will end the era of frameworks or change the game, as middlewares and APIs have always been the ideal way to provide a backend for multiple frontend clients, while a framework compound of components for models, controllers and views from database till the template are optimal for websites. The only era coming to an end is the era of one developer, one framework. The market consolidates for the good, and the platform inventor's framework didn't seem to make it. What I read of PSR-7 is still very much framed in HTTP/1.1, but does not provide for any of the features of HTTP/2. So I'm sure this PSR will never get the same relevance and importance like the other PSRs did. 2015-11-21 21:15 GMT+01:00 Adam Weinstock <[hidden email]>: I have no dog in this fight, but if you've been paying attention to the community, you will realize that PHP isn't going in the direction of frameworks, rather, it is embracing component libraries. |
Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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In reply to this post by Spabby
Hi,
with my message I did not intend that rumours start spreading around here. I am sorry about that. If any of you is watching what is happening at GitHub in the ZF repositories in the last couple of months you will never get the idea that the Zend Framework might be dead. > I'm sorry, without being rude you don't know what you are talking about. Yes, you are right. People don't know what they are talking about. But they don't know it because no official statement regarding ZF3 was posted in months (not everybody attended ZendCon). If people don't get an official statement, they start to think what this could mean. One cannot not communicate. People are waiting for an official statement. If they don't get it, they start to think what it means that no official statement was posted in months. I think even a one-liner by one of the officials should calm down almost anybody. Thanks and best regards, Ralf |
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> People are waiting for an official statement. If they don't get it, they > start to think what it means that no official statement was posted in > months. I think even a one-liner by one of the officials should calm > down almost anybody. I'll just not fight any war here related to importance of Zend Expression. Or how much work has been made for ZF3 let say compared with ZF1 or ZF2 work. I could be wrong maybe. No matter what progress has been made, one official statement won't be helpful. Unfortunately into today world without - continuous - communication no product has success. And is much harder to turn back a customer you lost (a developer which started to work with other tools). Also, as in every business is much cheaper to keep a customer you have now than attract a new customer (same for developers). -- Cristian Bichis IMAGIS Strada Faiantei nr 13 550098 Sibiu, Romania Phone: 004.0727.757533 Email: [hidden email] Web: www.imagis.ro |
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This is Matthew’s slide deck on ZF3 from ZendCon. This might answer some of the questions people have been fretting about. Jeremiah
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Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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I think a post with that link would be useful
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Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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ZF3 is not dead, ZF3 is not going to be a major splash; it was never intended to be. The main goal has been performance, separating out components, reducing dependencies amongst more things. There are very few of us that are actively contributing by merging patches, documenting and talking about what needs to be done. We also need to have people actively testing the framework from the develop branches of the components to aide in tackling this quicker. It's hard to really communicate all of the statuses as well as attempt to get a lot of builds out and ensuring that we continue to merge patches across the repositories. Remember the framework team that is actually working for Zend is small and they are now maintaining 3 major projects all of which are built off of Zend Framework components. Apigility, Expressive and the Framework itself. This also involves maintaining LTS versions for security patches, releases, blogging, webinars, conferences and far more. IMHO it is not simply the communication thereof the internal team itself of Zend / RougeWave but also that of the contributors (so myself included here) and the overall community that needs to step up. Remember, we all shape this community and the community drives what becomes built and what becomes the next version. This is not simply just an operation where you are being forced to watch by the wayside, this is an open source project that gladly welcomes contributors and people to be involved. Join us on #zftalk.dev and have some discussions about it (don't just join and leave 15m later). Open source works when we all come as a community and get into the driver seat and start driving forward. Sitting in the passenger seat and simply watching doesn't move us forward or complaining when you are not seeing things. The information is there, if you have that question determine the answer and communicate it in a way that you also see fit. My point is, get involved! As a contributor to ZF simply put we need more people to be involved and to help us continue to move the ball forward. Many of us contributors have full-time jobs, have children and other things in life going on but we try and we want to move the ball forward just as much as all of you do. For many of us, we utilize ZF in our daily jobs and that's how we started to contribute to it. So step up, get involved and start to contribute. On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Oscar Fanelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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Why don't we just issue everyone who's upset about the speed of communication a full refund :D
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I've been following this discussion closely, since as an ZF
Evangelist I've made some noise when the roadmap for ZF3 was
announced.
I truly believe we need an statement from Zend/Rogue or Matthew clarifying things, since the planned release date has come and go. It's understandable that Zend might be under a tough time since the acquisition (I don't think a process like this is ever smooth), but the truth is silence/anxiety/rumors will end up killing ZF3 if it's not dead already. I completely agree that the community is absolutely vital to the project, but let's face it: the official channels of communication are the ones from Zend (nothing wrong with that, IMO), so everyone needs to see something happening "there". I'd like to thank Ralph for basically saying what was on everyone's mind. Let's hope to hear something clear enough and fast enough so the whole situation can be fixed. Cheers, Er Galvão Abbott [hidden email]
Zend Framework Evangelist - Z Team On 11/23/2015 09:27 PM, Phillip Harrington wrote:
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Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Oscar Fanelli
This is Matthew’s presentation video on ZF3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7aSNUa1rJo&feature=youtu.be |
Re: Bad mood on framework.zend.com
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In reply to this post by galvao
Threads like this one are the main reason why I stay on github and contribute there, rather than bothering about message boards and mailing lists. I've seen more activity on the framework in the last 6 months than in the past 2 years.As for the PSR-7 comments, if you dismiss it like that then you missed the point and also missed the amount of effort put in it by Matthew: it's the second biggest game-changer in the entire PHP ecosystem (for this year) after PHP7. I hope I see you all less here (especially with silly shitstorms like this one) and more on github, trying to help out. If you feel like you could help, then please go over to https://github.com/zendframework/maintainers and get started somewhere. Greets, On 24 November 2015 at 07:59, Er Galvao Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
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*Applause* - take a bow sir. On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 at 11:22 Marco Pivetta <[hidden email]> wrote:
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