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Hi Ralf,
The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone
call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer.
I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short
time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was
unprofessional on my side.
I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly
not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a
lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project
delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project
could be/is dead.
Cristian
PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so
many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to
deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many
optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I
know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making
many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after
a while they are getting rid of ZF completely.
> Hi,
>
> a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the
> official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog
> entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com.
>
> http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html>
> Maybe a quick update could call them down a little?
>
> Thanks and best regards,
>
> Ralf
>
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I replied 5 days ago to that post, trying to calm down people. However I agree with Cristian, I think that an update post on the blog could really improve the situation.
> On 21 Nov 2015, at 18:12, Cristian Bichis < [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Ralf,
>
> The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer. I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was unprofessional on my side.
>
> I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project could be/is dead.
>
> Cristian
>
> PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after a while they are getting rid of ZF completely.
>> Hi,
>>
>> a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the
>> official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog
>> entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com.
>>
>> http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html>>
>> Maybe a quick update could call them down a little?
>>
>> Thanks and best regards,
>>
>> Ralf
>>
>
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I am afraid to say that probably the only honest response is: this
project is no longer budgeted by Zend (by a long time) so that’s why
there is no communication/interest and will be no further development.
Cristian
PS I don't work with any other framework than ZF.
> I replied 5 days ago to that post, trying to calm down people. However I agree with Cristian, I think that an update post on the blog could really improve the situation.
>
>> On 21 Nov 2015, at 18:12, Cristian Bichis < [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ralf,
>>
>> The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer. I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was unprofessional on my side.
>>
>> I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project could be/is dead.
>>
>> Cristian
>>
>> PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after a while they are getting rid of ZF completely.
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the
>>> official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog
>>> entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com.
>>>
>>> http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html>>>
>>> Maybe a quick update could call them down a little?
>>>
>>> Thanks and best regards,
>>>
>>> Ralf
>>>
>
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We owe it to everyone who waited for the release and sticked with the project in loyalty, to announce that Zend Framework 3 is discontinued.
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It's really bad to spread rumors like this. How can you speculate that Zend is no longer budgeting for ZF development as if it were a fact?
Jeremiah
> On Nov 21, 2015, at 11:54 AM, Cristian Bichis < [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I am afraid to say that probably the only honest response is: this project is no longer budgeted by Zend (by a long time) so that’s why there is no communication/interest and will be no further development.
>
> Cristian
>
> PS I don't work with any other framework than ZF.
>> I replied 5 days ago to that post, trying to calm down people. However I agree with Cristian, I think that an update post on the blog could really improve the situation.
>>
>>> On 21 Nov 2015, at 18:12, Cristian Bichis < [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Ralf,
>>>
>>> The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer. I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was unprofessional on my side.
>>>
>>> I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project could be/is dead.
>>>
>>> Cristian
>>>
>>> PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after a while they are getting rid of ZF completely.
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the
>>>> official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog
>>>> entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com.
>>>>
>>>> http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html>>>>
>>>> Maybe a quick update could call them down a little?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Ralf
>
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I have no dog in this fight, but if you've been paying attention to the community, you will realize that PHP isn't going in the direction of frameworks, rather, it is embracing component libraries.
This is what the PSR-7 specification is about, and the release of Zend Expressive is likely the closest thing you will get to a Zend "Framework."
The framework is dead. Long live the interface. On Saturday, November 21, 2015, Dominic Guhl < [hidden email]> wrote: We owe it to everyone who waited for the release and sticked with the project in loyalty, to announce that Zend Framework 3 is discontinued.
-- Adam Weinstock 646-736-6736
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Why do you think (I am not going to say "spread rumors") they are
actually budgeted ZF development in the last 1+ year ?
When there is basically no communication and the development (beside the
amazing effort of some non-Zend guys) is stalling...
Cristian
> It's really bad to spread rumors like this. How can you speculate that Zend is no longer budgeting for ZF development as if it were a fact?
>
> Jeremiah
>
>> On Nov 21, 2015, at 11:54 AM, Cristian Bichis < [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I am afraid to say that probably the only honest response is: this project is no longer budgeted by Zend (by a long time) so that’s why there is no communication/interest and will be no further development.
>>
>> Cristian
>>
>> PS I don't work with any other framework than ZF.
>>> I replied 5 days ago to that post, trying to calm down people. However I agree with Cristian, I think that an update post on the blog could really improve the situation.
>>>
>>>> On 21 Nov 2015, at 18:12, Cristian Bichis < [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ralf,
>>>>
>>>> The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer. I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was unprofessional on my side.
>>>>
>>>> I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project could be/is dead.
>>>>
>>>> Cristian
>>>>
>>>> PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after a while they are getting rid of ZF completely.
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the
>>>>> official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog
>>>>> entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe a quick update could call them down a little?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks and best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralf
--
Cristian Bichis
IMAGIS
Strada Faiantei nr 13
550098 Sibiu, Romania
Phone: 004.0727.757533
Email: [hidden email]
Web: www.imagis.ro
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This whole point is so far off the mark that I feel embarrassed contributing. I am willing to speculate that with Zend being acquired by Rogue Wave, there is actually a commitment to MORE investment in the coming months.
Zend Expressive was released only last month and is a huge game changer in the world of PSR-7 and frameworks.
I'm sorry, without being rude you don't know what you are talking about.
Gary Why do you think (I am not going to say "spread rumors") they are
actually budgeted ZF development in the last 1+ year ?
When there is basically no communication and the development (beside the
amazing effort of some non-Zend guys) is stalling...
Cristian
> It's really bad to spread rumors like this. How can you speculate that Zend is no longer budgeting for ZF development as if it were a fact?
>
> Jeremiah
>
>> On Nov 21, 2015, at 11:54 AM, Cristian Bichis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I am afraid to say that probably the only honest response is: this project is no longer budgeted by Zend (by a long time) so that’s why there is no communication/interest and will be no further development.
>>
>> Cristian
>>
>> PS I don't work with any other framework than ZF.
>>> I replied 5 days ago to that post, trying to calm down people. However I agree with Cristian, I think that an update post on the blog could really improve the situation.
>>>
>>>> On 21 Nov 2015, at 18:12, Cristian Bichis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ralf,
>>>>
>>>> The only time in my career when I didn't responded 2 times to a phone call from one of my customers the consequence was loosing that customer. I got a staff leaving and there was no developer to take over in a short time; I didn't know what to say to customer related to scheduler. It was unprofessional on my side.
>>>>
>>>> I think the same is happening here. A lot of guys are leaving ZF mainly not (just) because of delays on launching ZF3 but because there is a lack of communication. These guys are leaving not because the project delays for ZF3 but because this lack of communication means the project could be/is dead.
>>>>
>>>> Cristian
>>>>
>>>> PS Also there is a big bottleneck with the performance on ZF1/ZF2 so many of us are forced to learn a second framework just to be able to deliver some fast enough applications. Doesn't matter how many optimizations we apply ZF is still (one of) the slowest framework. I know there are improvements planned for ZF3 but this issue is making many developers to learn a new framework for some of the apps and after a while they are getting rid of ZF completely.
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> a friend of mine just pointed me to the bad mood of some users in the
>>>>> official ZF blog which is going on now for a couple of months. The blog
>>>>> entry is linked directly on the homepage of framework.zend.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://framework.zend.com/blog/announcing-the-zend-framework-3-roadmap.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe a quick update could call them down a little?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks and best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralf
--
Cristian Bichis
IMAGIS
Strada Faiantei nr 13
550098 Sibiu, Romania
Phone: 004.0727.757533
Email: [hidden email]
Web: www.imagis.ro
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A framework delivers more than just a descriptive composer file. A framework represents patterns, structure and a convention. Sometimes they come with a philosophy. A framework has always been a collection of components, no matter if it was a monolith like in ZF1 or if it's a deplete collection of dependencies and their injection into objects. They come in various sizes for various duties. To see in PSR-7 the end of frameworks is absurd.
Zend Expressive is another variant of micro framework - SensioLabs' SILEX is already there a little longer. PSR-7 describes another variant of what REST does for us, and nothing of it will end the era of frameworks or change the game, as middlewares and APIs have always been the ideal way to provide a backend for multiple frontend clients, while a framework compound of components for models, controllers and views from database till the template are optimal for websites.
The only era coming to an end is the era of one developer, one framework. The market consolidates for the good, and the platform inventor's framework didn't seem to make it.
What I read of PSR-7 is still very much framed in HTTP/1.1, but does not provide for any of the features of HTTP/2. So I'm sure this PSR will never get the same relevance and importance like the other PSRs did.
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Hi,
with my message I did not intend that rumours start spreading around
here. I am sorry about that. If any of you is watching what is happening
at GitHub in the ZF repositories in the last couple of months you will
never get the idea that the Zend Framework might be dead.
> I'm sorry, without being rude you don't know what you are talking about.
Yes, you are right. People don't know what they are talking about. But
they don't know it because no official statement regarding ZF3 was
posted in months (not everybody attended ZendCon). If people don't get
an official statement, they start to think what this could mean.
One cannot not communicate.
People are waiting for an official statement. If they don't get it, they
start to think what it means that no official statement was posted in
months. I think even a one-liner by one of the officials should calm
down almost anybody.
Thanks and best regards,
Ralf
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> People are waiting for an official statement. If they don't get it, they
> start to think what it means that no official statement was posted in
> months. I think even a one-liner by one of the officials should calm
> down almost anybody.
I'll just not fight any war here related to importance of Zend
Expression. Or how much work has been made for ZF3 let say compared with
ZF1 or ZF2 work. I could be wrong maybe.
No matter what progress has been made, one official statement won't be
helpful. Unfortunately into today world without - continuous -
communication no product has success.
And is much harder to turn back a customer you lost (a developer which
started to work with other tools). Also, as in every business is much
cheaper to keep a customer you have now than attract a new customer
(same for developers).
--
Cristian Bichis
IMAGIS
Strada Faiantei nr 13
550098 Sibiu, Romania
Phone: 004.0727.757533
Email: [hidden email]
Web: www.imagis.ro
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This is Matthew’s slide deck on ZF3 from ZendCon.
This might answer some of the questions people have been fretting about.
Jeremiah
People are waiting for an official statement. If they don't get it, they
start to think what it means that no official statement was posted in
months. I think even a one-liner by one of the officials should calm
down almost anybody.
I'll just not fight any war here related to importance of Zend Expression. Or how much work has been made for ZF3 let say compared with ZF1 or ZF2 work. I could be wrong maybe. No matter what progress has been made, one official statement won't be helpful. Unfortunately into today world without - continuous - communication no product has success. And is much harder to turn back a customer you lost (a developer which started to work with other tools). Also, as in every business is much cheaper to keep a customer you have now than attract a new customer (same for developers). -- Cristian Bichis IMAGIS Strada Faiantei nr 13 550098 Sibiu, Romania Phone: 004.0727.757533 Email: [hidden email]Web: www.imagis.ro
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I think a post with that link would be useful
This is Matthew’s slide deck on ZF3 from ZendCon.
This might answer some of the questions people have been fretting about.
Jeremiah
People are waiting for an official statement. If they don't get it, they
start to think what it means that no official statement was posted in
months. I think even a one-liner by one of the officials should calm
down almost anybody.
I'll just not fight any war here related to importance of Zend Expression. Or how much work has been made for ZF3 let say compared with ZF1 or ZF2 work. I could be wrong maybe. No matter what progress has been made, one official statement won't be helpful. Unfortunately into today world without - continuous - communication no product has success. And is much harder to turn back a customer you lost (a developer which started to work with other tools). Also, as in every business is much cheaper to keep a customer you have now than attract a new customer (same for developers). -- Cristian Bichis IMAGIS Strada Faiantei nr 13 550098 Sibiu, Romania Phone: 004.0727.757533 Email: [hidden email]Web: www.imagis.ro
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ZF3 is not dead, ZF3 is not going to be a major splash; it was never intended to be. The main goal has been performance, separating out components, reducing dependencies amongst more things. There are very few of us that are actively contributing by merging patches, documenting and talking about what needs to be done. We also need to have people actively testing the framework from the develop branches of the components to aide in tackling this quicker.
It's hard to really communicate all of the statuses as well as attempt to get a lot of builds out and ensuring that we continue to merge patches across the repositories. Remember the framework team that is actually working for Zend is small and they are now maintaining 3 major projects all of which are built off of Zend Framework components. Apigility, Expressive and the Framework itself. This also involves maintaining LTS versions for security patches, releases, blogging, webinars, conferences and far more.
IMHO it is not simply the communication thereof the internal team itself of Zend / RougeWave but also that of the contributors (so myself included here) and the overall community that needs to step up. Remember, we all shape this community and the community drives what becomes built and what becomes the next version. This is not simply just an operation where you are being forced to watch by the wayside, this is an open source project that gladly welcomes contributors and people to be involved. Join us on #zftalk.dev and have some discussions about it (don't just join and leave 15m later). Open source works when we all come as a community and get into the driver seat and start driving forward. Sitting in the passenger seat and simply watching doesn't move us forward or complaining when you are not seeing things. The information is there, if you have that question determine the answer and communicate it in a way that you also see fit. My point is, get involved! As a contributor to ZF simply put we need more people to be involved and to help us continue to move the ball forward. Many of us contributors have full-time jobs, have children and other things in life going on but we try and we want to move the ball forward just as much as all of you do. For many of us, we utilize ZF in our daily jobs and that's how we started to contribute to it. So step up, get involved and start to contribute.
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Why don't we just issue everyone who's upset about the speed of communication a full refund :D ZF3 is not dead, ZF3 is not going to be a major splash; it was never intended to be. The main goal has been performance, separating out components, reducing dependencies amongst more things. There are very few of us that are actively contributing by merging patches, documenting and talking about what needs to be done. We also need to have people actively testing the framework from the develop branches of the components to aide in tackling this quicker.
It's hard to really communicate all of the statuses as well as attempt to get a lot of builds out and ensuring that we continue to merge patches across the repositories. Remember the framework team that is actually working for Zend is small and they are now maintaining 3 major projects all of which are built off of Zend Framework components. Apigility, Expressive and the Framework itself. This also involves maintaining LTS versions for security patches, releases, blogging, webinars, conferences and far more.
IMHO it is not simply the communication thereof the internal team itself of Zend / RougeWave but also that of the contributors (so myself included here) and the overall community that needs to step up. Remember, we all shape this community and the community drives what becomes built and what becomes the next version. This is not simply just an operation where you are being forced to watch by the wayside, this is an open source project that gladly welcomes contributors and people to be involved. Join us on #zftalk.dev and have some discussions about it (don't just join and leave 15m later). Open source works when we all come as a community and get into the driver seat and start driving forward. Sitting in the passenger seat and simply watching doesn't move us forward or complaining when you are not seeing things. The information is there, if you have that question determine the answer and communicate it in a way that you also see fit. My point is, get involved! As a contributor to ZF simply put we need more people to be involved and to help us continue to move the ball forward. Many of us contributors have full-time jobs, have children and other things in life going on but we try and we want to move the ball forward just as much as all of you do. For many of us, we utilize ZF in our daily jobs and that's how we started to contribute to it. So step up, get involved and start to contribute.
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I've been following this discussion closely, since as an ZF
Evangelist I've made some noise when the roadmap for ZF3 was
announced.
I truly believe we need an statement from Zend/Rogue or Matthew
clarifying things, since the planned release date has come and go.
It's understandable that Zend might be under a tough time since the
acquisition (I don't think a process like this is ever smooth), but
the truth is silence/anxiety/rumors will end up killing ZF3 if it's
not dead already.
I completely agree that the community is absolutely vital to the
project, but let's face it: the official channels of communication
are the ones from Zend (nothing wrong with that, IMO), so everyone
needs to see something happening "there".
I'd like to thank Ralph for basically saying what was on everyone's
mind. Let's hope to hear something clear enough and fast enough so
the whole situation can be fixed.
Cheers,
Er Galvão Abbott [hidden email]
Zend Framework Evangelist - Z Team
On 11/23/2015 09:27 PM, Phillip Harrington wrote:
Why don't we just issue everyone who's upset about the speed
of communication a full refund :D
ZF3 is not dead, ZF3 is not going to be a major
splash; it was never intended to be. The main goal has been
performance, separating out components, reducing
dependencies amongst more things. There are very few of us
that are actively contributing by merging patches,
documenting and talking about what needs to be done. We
also need to have people actively testing the framework from
the develop branches of the components to aide in tackling
this quicker.
It's hard to really communicate all of the statuses as
well as attempt to get a lot of builds out and ensuring
that we continue to merge patches across the
repositories. Remember the framework team that is
actually working for Zend is small and they are now
maintaining 3 major projects all of which are built off of
Zend Framework components. Apigility, Expressive and the
Framework itself. This also involves maintaining LTS
versions for security patches, releases, blogging,
webinars, conferences and far more.
IMHO it is not simply the communication thereof the
internal team itself of Zend / RougeWave but also that of
the contributors (so myself included here) and the overall
community that needs to step up. Remember, we all shape
this community and the community drives what becomes built
and what becomes the next version. This is not simply
just an operation where you are being forced to watch by
the wayside, this is an open source project that gladly
welcomes contributors and people to be involved. Join us
on #zftalk.dev and have some discussions about it (don't
just join and leave 15m later). Open source works when we
all come as a community and get into the driver seat and
start driving forward. Sitting in the passenger seat and
simply watching doesn't move us forward or complaining
when you are not seeing things. The information is there,
if you have that question determine the answer and
communicate it in a way that you also see fit. My point
is, get involved! As a contributor to ZF simply put we
need more people to be involved and to help us continue to
move the ball forward. Many of us contributors have
full-time jobs, have children and other things in life
going on but we try and we want to move the ball forward
just as much as all of you do. For many of us, we utilize
ZF in our daily jobs and that's how we started to
contribute to it. So step up, get involved and start to
contribute.
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This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
This post was updated on .
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Threads like this one are the main reason why I stay on github and contribute there, rather than bothering about message boards and mailing lists.
I've seen more activity on the framework in the last 6 months than in the past 2 years. If you (need|want to help with) some kind of blogpost about zf3, then contribute yourselves too: https://github.com/zendframework/zf-web/tree/master/data/posts - there is enough material on Matthew's slides to make that happen. Even on that repo, we got more posts for this year than previous years. As for the PSR-7 comments, if you dismiss it like that then you missed the point and also missed the amount of effort put in it by Matthew: it's the second biggest game-changer in the entire PHP ecosystem (for this year) after PHP7.
I hope I see you all less here (especially with silly shitstorms like this one) and more on github, trying to help out.
Greets,
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*Applause* - take a bow sir. Threads like this one are the main reason why I stay on github and contribute there, rather than bothering about message boards and mailing lists.
I've seen more activity on the framework in the last 6 months than in the past 2 years. If you (need|want to help with) some kind of blogpost about zf3, then contribute yourselves too: https://github.com/zendframework/zf-web/tree/master/data/posts - there is enough material on Matthew's slides to make that happen. Even on that repo, we got more posts for this year than previous years. As for the PSR-7 comments, if you dismiss it like that then you missed the point and also missed the amount of effort put in it by Matthew: it's the second biggest game-changer in the entire PHP ecosystem (for this year) after PHP7.
I hope I see you all less here (especially with silly shitstorms like this one) and more on github, trying to help out.
Greets,
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