Acceptance of ZF2

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Acceptance of ZF2

Ralf Eggert
Hi,

I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.

Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.

So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?

And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?

Best regards,

Ralf

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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

graphicmist
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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Tomáš Fejfar
In reply to this post by Ralf Eggert
We're one of the cases, that got stuck on ZF1. Mainly because the architecture of our app was not ideal even in ZF1 and migration to ZF2 would require major rewrite. 

We also don't like the way ZF2 works. Where ZF1 was quite complex (compared to other frameworks) ZF2 is much more complex. And there is a lot of writing of boilerplate code involved. 

What I miss is "useful defaults" to get it working. 

Example is forms - they were more complex than usual FW implementation ($form->addText / addSelect / etc), but it gave you great flexibility. Now the forms are even more complex - with decoupled validation and filtering. ZF2 feels like meta-framework for building other frameworks :) And there are none yet AFAIK :/

Tomas Fejfar 
tomasfejfar.cz



On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.

Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.

So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?

And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?

Best regards,

Ralf


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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Eddie Abou-Jaoude
I disagree, validation belongs in the entities not in the forms - plus is not anymore complex, lack of documentation might make it appear more difficult. 


Eddie Abou-Jaoude
, 
BEng, MSc
Jaoude Studios Ltd
LAMP & Zend Framework Consultant








On 7 Jun 2013, at 18:25, Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]> wrote:

We're one of the cases, that got stuck on ZF1. Mainly because the architecture of our app was not ideal even in ZF1 and migration to ZF2 would require major rewrite. 

We also don't like the way ZF2 works. Where ZF1 was quite complex (compared to other frameworks) ZF2 is much more complex. And there is a lot of writing of boilerplate code involved. 

What I miss is "useful defaults" to get it working. 

Example is forms - they were more complex than usual FW implementation ($form->addText / addSelect / etc), but it gave you great flexibility. Now the forms are even more complex - with decoupled validation and filtering. ZF2 feels like meta-framework for building other frameworks :) And there are none yet AFAIK :/

Tomas Fejfar 
tomasfejfar.cz



On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.

Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.

So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?

And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?

Best regards,

Ralf



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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Mike Willbanks

I disagree, validation belongs in the entities not in the forms - plus is not anymore complex, lack of documentation might make it appear more difficult. 

I think this varies on the use case.  I have validation in my entities but I also have validation on my forms.  They validate different things and can vary based on where input might be coming from.
 


Eddie Abou-Jaoude
, 
BEng, MSc
Jaoude Studios Ltd
LAMP & Zend Framework Consultant








On 7 Jun 2013, at 18:25, Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]> wrote:

We're one of the cases, that got stuck on ZF1. Mainly because the architecture of our app was not ideal even in ZF1 and migration to ZF2 would require major rewrite. 

We also don't like the way ZF2 works. Where ZF1 was quite complex (compared to other frameworks) ZF2 is much more complex. And there is a lot of writing of boilerplate code involved. 

What I miss is "useful defaults" to get it working. 

Example is forms - they were more complex than usual FW implementation ($form->addText / addSelect / etc), but it gave you great flexibility. Now the forms are even more complex - with decoupled validation and filtering. ZF2 feels like meta-framework for building other frameworks :) And there are none yet AFAIK :/

Tomas Fejfar 
tomasfejfar.cz



On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.

Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.

So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?

And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?

Best regards,

Ralf




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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Kevin McArthur-2
In reply to this post by Ralf Eggert
Ralf,

I can say from our perspective, ZF2 went off the rails early in its
development, especially in terms of its architecture, modularity and
community processes. It then failed security audit (due mostly to
Composer's still-active MITM remote code installation vulnerabilities
and lack of review for technically-optional-but-actually-required third
party code) which meant it couldn't be used for our e-commerce projects.
Given the criteria we require for evaluating third-party frameworks
(features, community, ease of use, security, etc) ... it was impossible
to make the case for ZF2 migration.

That said, we're still happily using ZF1 and continue to develop
applications using that platform.

--

Kevin

On 2013-06-07 8:20 AM, Ralf Eggert wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
> session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
> obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
> are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
> in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.
>
> Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
> which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.
>
> So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?
>
> And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ralf
>

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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

graphicmist
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
I dive directly into ZF2 and has no experience on ZF1. Moreover i will put myself in beginner category as far as programming experience is concerned. I have been working on ZF2 for past 3 months and now quite comfortable and appreciate the awesoemness of  ZF2. But what is think the problem with the ZF2 acceptance is lack of documentation and tutorials. The experts are focused on improving the ZF2 environment rather than helping people in adopting and letting them became aware of the awesomeness which ZF2 delivers. PHP community has evolved though a long phase. There are still developers who do not think the OOP way. What i mean to say and person with good programming experience can anytime aware of what ZF2 has to be offer, implement it in its projects and play good around it. What a beginner looks around is an good documentation, good tutorials and most important an awesome community response, a platform where they get their even basic questions answered. It is just not about ZF2, this is about the PHP community as a whole. 

So, my suggestion is that we need to work on basic things which i pointed above. Tell me if i am wrong somewhere.


On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Kevin McArthur-2 [via Zend Framework Community] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ralf,

I can say from our perspective, ZF2 went off the rails early in its
development, especially in terms of its architecture, modularity and
community processes. It then failed security audit (due mostly to
Composer's still-active MITM remote code installation vulnerabilities
and lack of review for technically-optional-but-actually-required third
party code) which meant it couldn't be used for our e-commerce projects.
Given the criteria we require for evaluating third-party frameworks
(features, community, ease of use, security, etc) ... it was impossible
to make the case for ZF2 migration.

That said, we're still happily using ZF1 and continue to develop
applications using that platform.

--

Kevin

On 2013-06-07 8:20 AM, Ralf Eggert wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
> session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
> obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
> are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
> in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.
>
> Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
> which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.
>
> So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?
>
> And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ralf
>



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--
"I have a dream and its green"
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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Eddie Abou-Jaoude
In reply to this post by Mike Willbanks
I think this varies on the use case.  I have validation in my entities but I also have validation on my forms.  They validate different things and can vary based on where input might be coming from
Hmmm sounds like a code smell? If your entity requires certain validation before it is used in your application, it must pass that validation regardless where the data came from (your entity should not worry about the source) - if you are only hydrating part of the entity, then you will only need validation for those properties, this is easily achieved in ZF2 with 'setValidationGroup'

Eddie Abou-Jaoude
, 
BEng, MSc
Jaoude Studios Ltd
LAMP & Zend Framework Consultant








On 7 Jun 2013, at 19:13, Mike Willbanks <[hidden email]> wrote:


I disagree, validation belongs in the entities not in the forms - plus is not anymore complex, lack of documentation might make it appear more difficult. 

I think this varies on the use case.  I have validation in my entities but I also have validation on my forms.  They validate different things and can vary based on where input might be coming from.
 


Eddie Abou-Jaoude
, 
BEng, MSc
Jaoude Studios Ltd
LAMP & Zend Framework Consultant








On 7 Jun 2013, at 18:25, Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]> wrote:

We're one of the cases, that got stuck on ZF1. Mainly because the architecture of our app was not ideal even in ZF1 and migration to ZF2 would require major rewrite. 

We also don't like the way ZF2 works. Where ZF1 was quite complex (compared to other frameworks) ZF2 is much more complex. And there is a lot of writing of boilerplate code involved. 

What I miss is "useful defaults" to get it working. 

Example is forms - they were more complex than usual FW implementation ($form->addText / addSelect / etc), but it gave you great flexibility. Now the forms are even more complex - with decoupled validation and filtering. ZF2 feels like meta-framework for building other frameworks :) And there are none yet AFAIK :/

Tomas Fejfar 
tomasfejfar.cz



On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.

Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.

So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?

And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?

Best regards,

Ralf





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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Pádraic Brady
In reply to this post by Kevin McArthur-2
My own perspective...

I'm guilty of not adopting ZF2 until relatively recently. The question
of acceptance isn't really easy to explain away. In my case, I had a
number of problems:

1. ZF1 was successful.
2. We invested a lot of time in ZF1. It was and still is a great framework.
3. A lot of us are still smarting from a recession. Switching involves costs.
4. COSTS
5. If it ain't broke, why fix it? (esp. since migration is extra work
for near-zero short-term gain)

Not everyone can be as nimble as they'd like to be ;).

1-5 also cover that other elephant in the room. It begins with S.

So the problem of acceptance is largely one of perception mixed with
first-to-market blues mixed with the realities of surviving a major
economic meltdown that is still rumbling on even today. That and not
quite adapting well to a post-PEAR world. PEAR is D.E.A.D. You'll
notice that most of these are beyond our control... So, to resolve the
acceptance problem, we just need to figure out how ZF2 is perceived
and then modify those perceptions to the extent that it doesn't
undermine what makes the framework "good". I'm sure that's really
easy! ;) But, honestly, we can control that factor at least.

Why is the elephant in the room that begins with S more accepted? What
can we learn from the Elephant's ongoing development? What are the
most common valid complaints about ZF2? What are ZF2's most commonly
mentioned positives? Can we actually put forward some goals beyond
throwing code at a wall? I'm pretty sure that code is not the
immediate solution.

It's entirely possible to iterate ZF3 and still change absolutely
nothing of consequence. So my primary concern with ZF3, is that we
iterate too softly and fail to actually respond to three things: the
marketplace, the community and the death of component libraries
(murdered in the dark by Github and Composer). ZF2 unfortunately
failed in two of these areas so let's not repeat history.

Sidenote: ZF2 has one of the two best security regimes among
frameworks. Composer is entirely optional and, yes, its MITM issue and
ability for the community to ignore it is a really good joke. I know
what other frameworks do - I've reviewed and reported security issues
on most of them. The other is the Elephant. It's so insidiously evil
that it actually cooperates with us and reuses our code! Insufferable!
;)

Paddy


On 7 June 2013 19:20, Kevin McArthur <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ralf,
>
> I can say from our perspective, ZF2 went off the rails early in its
> development, especially in terms of its architecture, modularity and
> community processes. It then failed security audit (due mostly to
> Composer's still-active MITM remote code installation vulnerabilities
> and lack of review for technically-optional-but-actually-required third
> party code) which meant it couldn't be used for our e-commerce projects.
> Given the criteria we require for evaluating third-party frameworks
> (features, community, ease of use, security, etc) ... it was impossible
> to make the case for ZF2 migration.
>
> That said, we're still happily using ZF1 and continue to develop
> applications using that platform.
>
> --
>
> Kevin
>
> On 2013-06-07 8:20 AM, Ralf Eggert wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
>> session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
>> obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
>> are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
>> in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.
>>
>> Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
>> which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.
>>
>> So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?
>>
>> And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Ralf
>>
>



--

--
Pádraic Brady

http://blog.astrumfutura.com
http://www.survivethedeepend.com
Zend Framework Community Review Team
Zend Framework PHP-FIG Representative
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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Mike Willbanks
In reply to this post by Eddie Abou-Jaoude

I think this varies on the use case.  I have validation in my entities but I also have validation on my forms.  They validate different things and can vary based on where input might be coming from
Hmmm sounds like a code smell? If your entity requires certain validation before it is used in your application, it must pass that validation regardless where the data came from (your entity should not worry about the source) - if you are only hydrating part of the entity, then you will only need validation for those properties, this is easily achieved in ZF2 with 'setValidationGroup'

Not exactly a code smell.  Different data requires different treatment and it is not my entity that is worrying about the different data.  The form does not know about the entity and the entity has no idea about the form.  They are completely separate and should be overall for SoC.  Yes, you can certainly share the validation and filtering with the form but you may not need it all.

Here are some additional ideas: 
1. You have legacy data sets that while safe; you no longer want to allow - but you do not want to impact the user.
2. Now, you have different validation rules.  Now you could make these validation rules dynamic based on another field of the entity OR you could decide on the lowest common denominator.
3. Your form error messages are different than those in the entity.   Another fun one; but easily adjusted.
4. The entity at the end result has nothing to do with the original input
    a. You may be fetching additional data through a 3rd party service that you consume a single time; do you need more entities to push these things through?

Overall; there are several cases and points where you do not exactly want things even bound to the entity; binding to an entity is optional.  What I am simply saying here is that there are cases for both points.
 


Eddie Abou-Jaoude
, 
BEng, MSc
Jaoude Studios Ltd
LAMP & Zend Framework Consultant








On 7 Jun 2013, at 19:13, Mike Willbanks <[hidden email]> wrote:


I disagree, validation belongs in the entities not in the forms - plus is not anymore complex, lack of documentation might make it appear more difficult. 

I think this varies on the use case.  I have validation in my entities but I also have validation on my forms.  They validate different things and can vary based on where input might be coming from.
 


Eddie Abou-Jaoude
, 
BEng, MSc
Jaoude Studios Ltd
LAMP & Zend Framework Consultant








On 7 Jun 2013, at 18:25, Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]> wrote:

We're one of the cases, that got stuck on ZF1. Mainly because the architecture of our app was not ideal even in ZF1 and migration to ZF2 would require major rewrite. 

We also don't like the way ZF2 works. Where ZF1 was quite complex (compared to other frameworks) ZF2 is much more complex. And there is a lot of writing of boilerplate code involved. 

What I miss is "useful defaults" to get it working. 

Example is forms - they were more complex than usual FW implementation ($form->addText / addSelect / etc), but it gave you great flexibility. Now the forms are even more complex - with decoupled validation and filtering. ZF2 feels like meta-framework for building other frameworks :) And there are none yet AFAIK :/

Tomas Fejfar 
tomasfejfar.cz



On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.

Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.

So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?

And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?

Best regards,

Ralf






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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Alessandro Pellizzari
In reply to this post by Tomáš Fejfar
Il Fri, 07 Jun 2013 19:25:08 +0200, Tomáš Fejfar ha scritto:

> We're one of the cases, that got stuck on ZF1. Mainly because the
> architecture of our app was not ideal even in ZF1 and migration to ZF2
> would require major rewrite.

The same here.
Also, we don't have one app, but neraly 150 different sites, many of them
reusing some in-house extensions to ZF1 classes.
 
> We also don't like the way ZF2 works. Where ZF1 was quite complex
> (compared to other frameworks) ZF2 is much more complex. And there is a
> lot of writing of boilerplate code involved.

Same here.
 
> What I miss is "useful defaults" to get it working.

Exactly. I don't want to edit 3 different "text files" (PHP arrays or ini
or xml or whatever) files to add a controller to my site.

I feel like Zend Framework 2 is made to build huge immutable (meaning:
just debug, do not add new parts) applications, but is not fit to build
small and mutable websites.

Maybe something like what Silex is to Symfony2 would help.

Or a reimplementation of Zend_Application, that gives "sane defaults"
with a conventions-based file layout: put your controllers there, your
views there, your layouts there and your models there, and they will be
found automatically.

In the last 12 months I have been repeatedly trying to learn ZF2 (hello
Enrico! I followed 3 of your presentations at conventions :) but still
think it doesn't fit our needs like ZF1 did. So we are stuck with ZF1,
and are evaluating other frameworks (Symfony and Laravel) to be ready
when ZF1 will not be supported anymore.

Bye.


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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

richard
In reply to this post by Eddie Abou-Jaoude
Hmmm sounds like a code smell? If your entity requires certain validation before it is used in your application, it must pass that validation regardless where the data came from (your entity should not worry about the source) - if you are only hydrating part of the entity, then you will only need validation for those properties, this is easily achieved in ZF2 with 'setValidationGroup'
I would suggest that the set of valid values for an Entity may be greater than the set of valid values for a Form. In this case surely one should validate the Form and Entity independently?


On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 8:29 PM, Eddie Abou-Jaoude <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think this varies on the use case.  I have validation in my entities but I also have validation on my forms.  They validate different things and can vary based on where input might be coming from
Hmmm sounds like a code smell? If your entity requires certain validation before it is used in your application, it must pass that validation regardless where the data came from (your entity should not worry about the source) - if you are only hydrating part of the entity, then you will only need validation for those properties, this is easily achieved in ZF2 with 'setValidationGroup'


Eddie Abou-Jaoude
, 
BEng, MSc
Jaoude Studios Ltd
LAMP & Zend Framework Consultant








On 7 Jun 2013, at 19:13, Mike Willbanks <[hidden email]> wrote:


I disagree, validation belongs in the entities not in the forms - plus is not anymore complex, lack of documentation might make it appear more difficult. 

I think this varies on the use case.  I have validation in my entities but I also have validation on my forms.  They validate different things and can vary based on where input might be coming from.
 


Eddie Abou-Jaoude
, 
BEng, MSc
Jaoude Studios Ltd
LAMP & Zend Framework Consultant








On 7 Jun 2013, at 18:25, Tomáš Fejfar <[hidden email]> wrote:

We're one of the cases, that got stuck on ZF1. Mainly because the architecture of our app was not ideal even in ZF1 and migration to ZF2 would require major rewrite. 

We also don't like the way ZF2 works. Where ZF1 was quite complex (compared to other frameworks) ZF2 is much more complex. And there is a lot of writing of boilerplate code involved. 

What I miss is "useful defaults" to get it working. 

Example is forms - they were more complex than usual FW implementation ($form->addText / addSelect / etc), but it gave you great flexibility. Now the forms are even more complex - with decoupled validation and filtering. ZF2 feels like meta-framework for building other frameworks :) And there are none yet AFAIK :/

Tomas Fejfar 
tomasfejfar.cz



On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.

Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.

So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?

And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?

Best regards,

Ralf






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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

localheinz
In reply to this post by Ralf Eggert
Hello everyone,


> I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
> session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
> obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
> are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
> in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.

I like ZF2 a lot and I think it's a way better choice than ZF1 when you have the opportunity to start fresh. I haven't had the need to convert an old ZF1 application to ZF2, so I can't say anything about the pains involved in it, but I guess that this is something that people fear to do if they do not have the resources.
 
> Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
> which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.

Actually, I'd like to know as well, and I think it would probably be even a great idea if this was shown somewhere on the ZF2 website (of course, when the corresponding users agree).

> And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?

The biggest problems I see are those related with the documentation. I have complained about this on this mailing list when ZF2 was released as stable and the documentation would not allow you to get started as quickly as you would expect - given that it was supposed to be a coherent documentation and not a collection of often insufficient documentation of single components. Even with this state, it didn't allow to fully grasp the concept of how you would have to set up an MVC application (which I guess is the use case for probably at least 80% of the users).

If ZF2 doesn't want to lose more users, the documentation really needs to improve.

I wouldn't even think about a ZF3 branch without the documentation having caught up, seriously!

I've talked to Ralf Eggert and Martin Keckeis about this at the International PHP Conference (and to other developers on other occasions) - most of them agreed that the quality of the documentation is a great hinderance in adopting (that is, choosing) ZF2 over any other comparable framework out there (that is, Symfony, for example).


Best regards,

Andreas
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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Anthony Shireman
When I finally *got* ZF1 and could make whatever I wanted it was really nice to know what to create and how to do so. I had written a few smallish apps in ZF1 but the main one was a Laboratory Scheduling system. It took me a good 4 months (granted programming isn't my day job) to get to the same level of comfort with ZF2. I now feel that I'm about at the same level with ZF2 as ZF1. It seems like a lot of people complained about ZF1 performance (among other things) and ZF2 did a great job of addressing several of the issues. It came with a bit more added complexity with the configuration, but once you had an idea of how to manage it, it didn't seem too bad. I've written (but not published) about a dozen modules in the conversion of my ZF1 Scheduling app to ZF2 and I wouldn't turn back to ZF1. The documentation isn't fantastic but until someone steps up to do it, it will stay in it's current state. Maybe someone should start a Kickstarter for a book of ZF2 documentation and maybe a few included tutorials. I'd shell out $10 for that.


On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Andreas Möller <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,


> I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
> session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
> obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
> are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
> in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.

I like ZF2 a lot and I think it's a way better choice than ZF1 when you have the opportunity to start fresh. I haven't had the need to convert an old ZF1 application to ZF2, so I can't say anything about the pains involved in it, but I guess that this is something that people fear to do if they do not have the resources.

> Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
> which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.

Actually, I'd like to know as well, and I think it would probably be even a great idea if this was shown somewhere on the ZF2 website (of course, when the corresponding users agree).

> And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?

The biggest problems I see are those related with the documentation. I have complained about this on this mailing list when ZF2 was released as stable and the documentation would not allow you to get started as quickly as you would expect - given that it was supposed to be a coherent documentation and not a collection of often insufficient documentation of single components. Even with this state, it didn't allow to fully grasp the concept of how you would have to set up an MVC application (which I guess is the use case for probably at least 80% of the users).

If ZF2 doesn't want to lose more users, the documentation really needs to improve.

I wouldn't even think about a ZF3 branch without the documentation having caught up, seriously!

I've talked to Ralf Eggert and Martin Keckeis about this at the International PHP Conference (and to other developers on other occasions) - most of them agreed that the quality of the documentation is a great hinderance in adopting (that is, choosing) ZF2 over any other comparable framework out there (that is, Symfony, for example).


Best regards,

Andreas

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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Ralf Eggert
In reply to this post by Ralf Eggert
Hi again,

thanks for the feedback so far. I just wonder, what could be done to
change the course for ZF2 now. Most say, documentation. But what kind of
documentation would you need?

Maybe we could add all these enhancement requests to the issue tracker
and make another Dochunt weekend to get some of these done?

https://github.com/zendframework/zf2-documentation/issues

Comments? Ideas?

Regards,

Ralf
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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Tim Fountain-2
On 9 June 2013 09:51, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:

thanks for the feedback so far. I just wonder, what could be done to
change the course for ZF2 now. Most say, documentation. But what kind of
documentation would you need?

The two main changes to the docs I'd like to see don't actually relate to the content:


It's really hard to find things on these pages, particularly if you land on them from a Google search. It also reduces the usefulness of the comments, since comments posted could relate to any one of the topics covered by that page.

Incidentally, looking at the source for the view helpers page linked above, it seems to link to the individual helper pages (good) *and* include their contents (bad) - https://raw.github.com/zendframework/zf2-documentation/master/docs/languages/en/modules/zend.view.helpers.rst. So for example the headTitle helper has its own page: http://framework.zend.com/manual/2.2/en/modules/zend.view.helpers.head-title.html but all of this content is in the view helpers page as well. I'm not sure if this is a bug or not.


2. Ensure the "current" version of the docs is always found at the same URL (i.e. remove the version number just from the current version)

If you search for anything ZF2 related on Google, results that point at the official site mostly point at version 2.0 of the documentation (or sometimes 1.12). This is bad, and is going to become more of a problem over time. By always having the current documentation at the same URL, that ends up being the one people will link to from blogs and the like, which means that'll be the version most like to appear in the search listings. 


Beyond that, fixing the docs-releated issues would be great, but how do we identify gaps in the docs, or things that could use more examples? Perhaps a "Something missing?" suggestions box below the comments? Look at common questions people ask on the mailing lists or StackOverflow to see if they relate to things that could be clearer in the official docs?

-- 
Tim Fountain
http://tfountain.co.uk/
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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Tirth Bodawala
In reply to this post by Eddie Abou-Jaoude
I know ZF2 seems complex than ZF1 but believe me its so awesome.. I have
been doing research on making ZF2 library to be used by Sockets, I tried
to learn the core of ZF2 and it was fascinating.. Of course i missed the
ZF1 defaults but ZF2 is all about creativity. To create my own
structure. Its feels like freedom..
     I don't see any point in changing the current structure of ZF2 or
to include exclude anything. As usual you guys will bring something new
and i would be really happy to learn it. But at present state ZF2 is great.

Sincerely,
Tirth Bodawala
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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

Spabby
What your saying is that in a room full of ZF1 users the adoption rate of ZF2 was very poor.


On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Tirth Bodawala <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know ZF2 seems complex than ZF1 but believe me its so awesome.. I have been doing research on making ZF2 library to be used by Sockets, I tried to learn the core of ZF2 and it was fascinating.. Of course i missed the ZF1 defaults but ZF2 is all about creativity. To create my own structure. Its feels like freedom..
    I don't see any point in changing the current structure of ZF2 or to include exclude anything. As usual you guys will bring something new and i would be really happy to learn it. But at present state ZF2 is great.

Sincerely,
Tirth Bodawala

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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

weierophinney
Administrator
In reply to this post by Tim Fountain-2
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 6:08 AM, Tim Fountain <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 9 June 2013 09:51, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2. Ensure the "current" version of the docs is always found at the same URL
> (i.e. remove the version number just from the current version)
>
> If you search for anything ZF2 related on Google, results that point at the
> official site mostly point at version 2.0 of the documentation (or sometimes
> 1.12). This is bad, and is going to become more of a problem over time. By
> always having the current documentation at the same URL, that ends up being
> the one people will link to from blogs and the like, which means that'll be
> the version most like to appear in the search listings.

This one became impossible when we added v2 to the mix. The reason is
that any pages that were hitting "latest" would have been instantly
out-of-date, and the search results would have been incorrect.
Essentially, when we have multiple major versions, each getting
updated versions periodically, what is really "latest"?

I think we could have /1/ and /2/ links, however, which point to the
latest minor version of those respective major versions. Would that
address the issue, Tim?


--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc
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Re: Acceptance of ZF2

weierophinney
Administrator
In reply to this post by Ralf Eggert
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Ralf Eggert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I was attending the IPC Spring 2013 in Berlin on Tuesday and hold a
> session about migration from ZF1 to ZF2. From the feedback I got, it was
> obvious that ZF2 is no really as much accepted as ZF1 was. Most projects
> are stuck on ZF1 due to a couple of different reasons. Missing know-how
> in ZF2, missing time, missing budgest, but mainly missing migration support.
>
> Anyway, I was asked a lot of times about big and well-known projects
> which currently use ZF2. To be honest, I could not remember any.
>
> So, who knows any big project based on ZF2?
>
> And what do you think about ZF2 acceptance and how could it be improved?

First off, from download statistics, we've seen a huge upswing in ZF2
adoption -- to the point that we now have a 60/40 split ZF2/ZF1
download rate. Yes, you read that correctly -- ZF2 is being downloaded
more than ZF1 now, and actually has been for around six months now.

I was just at DPC, and spoke to many people. I'm seeing more and more
people migrating to ZF2, but they're typically doing it now for new
features for existing applications, and only migrating existing code
if they need to make major changes anyways. As several others have
replied in this thread as well, if they have a working ZF1 app,
there's often no compelling reason to upgrade to ZF2 -- why dump
effort into an upgrade when it delivers what it needs to perfectly
well? This would be true when updating to a new ZF1 version quite
often as well, though -- so that's something to keep in mind when
having these discussions.

One definite issue, however, is how to find developers with ZF2
experience. Since the version is still relatively new, there's a
smaller pool of developers available. This will change over time, but
I do wonder if there might be more ways to kick start this. One effort
is being made by Zend -- as we now have a fundamentals course, and are
about to debut the advanced course. Hopefully we'll see more skilled
developers emerging from these.

Documentation is often cited, and yet I hear about an equal number of
folks saying the documentation is horrible as are saying it is
wonderful; I think it's next to impossible to have documentation for a
project this size that will be universally useful. That said, we could
and should have better documentation -- the problem is identifying
what needs to be done, as well as getting enough attention diverted
from the fun tasks of coding to the tasks of writing docs -- which are
very, very different skills.

So, no easy answers to your questions -- just observations.


--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney
Project Lead            | [hidden email]
Zend Framework          | http://framework.zend.com/
PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc
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